In an old revision of this page, the word claim was treated as follows:
The truth of the sentence can be disputed for ages, but one simple change makes everyone agree:
The current page, lumping it together with some other words, says:
Compare the implications of the two otherwise identical sentences, "Microsoft states it will not abuse encryption keys" and "Microsoft claims it will not abuse encryption keys".
Dubious use:
. . .
Acceptable use:
I don't think that's an acceptable use at all. Look in [url=http://www.tfd.com/claim]the dictionary[/url]: "To state to be true, especially when open to question". That, in other words, suggests that Bush's statement was open to question, which is POV. According to many POVs (the majority POVs, actually, at least in the West), the view is not at all questionable, and in fact anyone who questions it is quite possibly viewed as a loony depending on whom you ask.
I would propose that this section look something like this.
These all share the theme of explicitly making it clear that a given statement is not necessarily factual. This connotation introduces unnecessary bias into the writing; Wikipedia maintains a neutral point of view, and in general, there will be someone out there who will view a given statement as highly probable—at the very least the person who said it! Where doubt does exist, it should be mentioned explicitly, along with who's doing the doubting, rather than relying on murky implications.
The word claim can be used to mean "assert, say". In this sense, it carries a very strong connotation of dubiousness: by using it, you suggest that the assertion is suspect. The American Heritage Dictionary notes this connotation explicitly in their definition of the word: "To state to be true, especially when open to question". Of course, there are other definitions of claim as well. These generally don't have the same connotation, and the word can be used freely in those senses. For instance, making a claim in court or claiming a piece of land are valid.
So-called (like "scare quotes", to which similar principles apply) can suggest that a term is invalid. Both the AHD[1] and Webster's[2] give the term two definitions, one indicating that a normal name follows and one indicating that an incorrect name follows. It can be difficult to tell the usages apart; in general, the term may be used for introducing terminology likely to be unfamiliar to the reader (although italics may be preferable), but never for characterizing any specific application of an already-known term.
Supposed and supposedly, like claim, serve the function of casting doubt upon an assertion. Saying something is "supposedly true" makes it seem as though the author believes it uncertain. On the other hand, supposed can sometimes denote intent, permission, or prohibition. In such cases the term will often be neutral, but probably too informal for Wikipedia.
Alleged (along with allegedly) and purported (along with purportedly) are different from the foregoing in that they are generally used by those who genuinely have no predisposition as to whether the statement being cited is true or not. Newspapers, for instance, almost universally refer to any indicted but unconvicted criminal as an alleged criminal. Therefore, there is no neutrality problem with using them. However, there may be a problem of ambiguity—they should only be used where the identity of the doubter is clear.
This is a rather large change, so I'd appreciate some feedback. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 01:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
See problems that have arisen with the "claim" guideline at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Some Thoughts Concerning Education. I think that the wording of the guideline is too stringent and it should rely on the OED. Thanks. Awadewit 03:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I propose this addition: According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "claim" is "‘Often loosely used (esp. in U.S.) for: Contend, maintain, assert’." This usage is particularly common when discussing texts and ideas. For example:
What words should be used to describe statements that have been discredited or debunked?
Hrafn42 11:01, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
It's all talk -- but with consequences.
Try testify or its derivative if the defendant so says under oath in a court of law. Testimony can be true, objective, valid, verifiable, and unbiased. It can likewise be false, deluded, unsubstantiable, perjured, discreditable, and self-serving. The generic word for any statement made under oath in a court of law is testimony, irrespective of who delivers it and its reliability. Such is the generic term in use in law for statements in court.
State is acceptable if the contention, irrespective of its validity, is made on some official statement in the presence of persons deputized to accept such statements, whether signed or oral. If the police officer who collects the verbal communication of a suspect "I was on the other side of town at that time" or that of an eyewitness "The license number on the car speeding away from the crime scene was "California 0 XXX 000" on a document or a recording described in a subsequent legal preceding a "statement", then state is as good a description of the words that a defendant (or eyewitness) offers as a description of events. Statements, like testimony, can be true, objective, valid... discreditable, or self-serving.
Say or tell suggests the absence of consequences for truth or falsehood relevant to a legal proceeding or a lack of formality. Thus
"The alleged robber told a reporter from TV 37 News that he was on the opposite side of town at the time of the robbery"
has no consequences in law because news reports are not ordinarily testimony or evidence.
An exception might be that
The jailhouse snitch stated (to police or jail officials on a statement to be used in a court of law or for further investigation) or testified (under oath in a court of law) that he overheard the defendant say something incriminating.Paul from Michigan 11:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
This style good really isn't NPOV. It's examples may be the best to put it, but there is no need you use examples that everybody criticizes, such as Microsoft or G. Bush. Iolakana|(talk) 16:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
The word "liberate" means "to set free, as from oppression, confinement, or foreign control" [3]. It's usage should be avoided in the cases that do not fit this definition. For instance, it woud be inappropriate to say "the army of country X liberated territory Y from Z", if the political regime established by country X at territory Y is oppressive. It does not matter whether regime Z was oppressive or not.
Another example, "the army of country X liberated country Y from the control of country Z" is inappropriate if the country Y claims or claimed its independence but did not obtain it from X. In this case the country Y was not set free from foreign control, but rather one foreign control was replaced by another one.
Please note that according to the definition the pre-war status of the territory is irrelevant.
The word "liberate" and its derivatives should not be avoided if the context clearly fits the definition: liberation of prisoners, retaking a territory if most reputable scholars do not consider the new regime at this territory oppressive, if the country becomes indpendent, etc. --AndriyK 15:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I concur with AndriyK's, Halibu's, and Deuar's statements.--tufkaa 20:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I think liberate can be generally avoided provided that it is retained in cases where it is the "most common English name" for an event (I'm thinking of Liberation of Paris, in particular). Kirill Lokshin 20:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm aware, however, that there's been a longstanding dispute on this issue. I hope all participants in it have been informed so they can discuss it here? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
The word "liberate" means "to set free, as from oppression, confinement, or foreign control" [4]. It's usage should be avoided in the cases that do not fit this definition. For instance, it woud be inappropriate to say "the army of country X liberated territory Y from Z", if the political regime established by country X at territory Y is oppressive. It does not matter whether regime Z was oppressive or not.
Another example, "the army of country X liberated country Y from the control of country Z" is inappropriate if the country Y claims or claimed its independence but did not obtain it from X. In this case the country Y was not set free from foreign control, but rather one foreign control was replaced by another one. Therefore this situation does not fit into definition as well.
The word "liberate" and its derivatives should not be avoided if the context clearly fits the definition: liberation of prisoners, for instance. There are no formal reasons to avoid the word "liberate" in the case of (re)taking terrirory in combat operations if reputable scholars do not consider the newly established or reestablished regime at this territory oppressive, if the country becomes indpendent, etc. Still, many editors believe that militaric terms like "(re)take control over", "advance into", "(re)clame", "recover" etc. is better suited in such situations, as it is more encyclopedic and less politically charged, and potentially less controversial.
Finally I will not accept double standards for eastern or western thetres of World War 2. --Kuban Cossack 16:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
As liberation is a term devoted to expansion of freedom, it can't be used to define what happened in territories taken by Soviet Union, where massive executions, repression of national identity and political terror took place. From what I know only in Russia the term doesn't evoke controversy(or even outright rejection of the term as in some worst hit countries), perhaps it should be limited then to territories in its possesion ? There are many other, fairly neutral and descriptive terms that can be used. Its obvious that the term "liberation" in regards to actions of Soviet Union in areas that went under its control, rises serious objections. I may also note that not only in Wikipedians but in governments and populations of those countries. --Molobo 18:43, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd be wary of "liberate" because (unless its in the literal sense of "set free"), any battle of "Liberation" will be seen as a freeing by one side, and (usually) a loss of freedom by the other. So in general, I wouldn't mind seeing this on the words list. Its exactly that kind of inherent worded viewpoint that this list's designed to address. FT2 (Talk | email) 03:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I can't understand how anyone under the authority of any government is "liberated" for they are under the authority of others. This is a doublespeak word and should be avoided by unbiased encyclopedias so they can exist as such. The phrase "relatively liberated" is arguable, however.
My current pet peeve is the word "garner". It seems to crop up in entertainment-related articles particularly, eg. "so and so garnered 19 Oscars throughout their long career". It is becoming the cliche of the decade. It mimics the kind of unreal language you hear on plastic-infotainment TV shows. We're better than that. Where can I make an appeal to people to please stop using it. JackofOz 21:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I find it ironic that this page contains the phrase "Some people assert that yesterday's cults are today's mainstream religions," as this phrase seems to violate a number of Wikepedia guidlines, including the guidlines on this very page. "Assert" is one of those words that is a synonym for say, which introduces a bias to the statement. And in the Wikipedia article on weasel words, "Some people say . . ." is given as one of the weasel terms to avoid. In fact, it's the very first example. I just thought that was kind of funny.
As has been discussed for article titles already - Wikipedia:Naming conventions - propaganda names, especially referring to military conflicts, are to be avoided. E.g. United States invasion of Panama instead of "Operation Just Cause" and Iraq War instead of "Operation Iraqi Freedom", holocaust instead of "Final solution of the Jewish question". This does not hold when there is a need to point to the actual operation rather than a neutral term, e.g. if a conflict is known under a certain name but for different parts of it there are only operational names available and a neutral descriptive is impractical. Añoranza 00:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Where will this discussion appear next? Why do the people in the previous discussions have to chase down the new ones all the time? This is getting out of hand, this discussion was handled in two other locations. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 02:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
In the case of military operations, however, typically two sides are involved: it's not a matter of one entity making up names for itself or its property. Furthermore, typically the codename is not the most common name used for the operation, so having it be the article name violates the cardinal rule of article naming, and using it instead of more usual terms would be jarring and thus poor style. Thus, in many cases a more descriptive name is superior, for both names and text. I'm not willing to rule out using codenames altogether, though; they might in some cases be the most common term used. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Realistically, one will redirect to the other, or the other will redirect to the one, of course. As a rule, if something has a formal name, then that formal name is not biased. For example, a school is a school, africa is africa, the boer war is the boer war and a PC is a PC. The creators and "owners" of something usually have the right to choose its name. Where POV comes in is when a name inherently takes a side. But a proper noun is not usually such a thing. Neither "Desert Storm" nor "US invasion of Iraq" are particularly likely to mislead or insult a reader, since these are the formal name, and description, respectively. My $0.02 FT2 (Talk | email) 22:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
A bunch of thoughts:
"the Homeopathy article factually states that "It is growing in popularity..." We might factually state that it has grown from 1986 to 2006. We should not extrapolate that and say it constitutes a trend. "Is growing" should be cited to a reliable source who says so. Thoughts? Tom Harrison Talk 13:43, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
If it said "homeopathy will continue to grow in popularity", that's a prediction. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 20:56, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
"where it's defined" - Sure, when you have a known function you can talk about its derivative. Another way of making the criticism I just made would be to say that we are claiming to know something about a function: that its derivative exists at a point, and is positive. We can't say that ourselves; we need to cite a reliable source who says it. Tom Harrison Talk 21:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
We don't know the left hand side; we only know an interval between two times in the past. In some cases that's being generous: really we only know values at discrete times in the past. But maybe I'm missing your point. I agree that it needs to be cited, but what needs to be cited is a reliable source saying, "it is growing." I would say it is not enough to cite figures showing more homeopathy this year than last year. Citing figures would let us say "grew." Citing a source would let us quote it as saying, "is growing." Tom Harrison Talk 20:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
"Is growing", the synonymous "is increasing", or the related "is spreading", as do their negatives "shrinking", "vanishing", or "dwindling" with respect to scope or numbers imply predictions of the future, at least in the magnitude of a phenomenon by the meanings of the words with respect to some phenomena. The appropriate use is more aptly "has been (choose word) as of (time)". Thus, "into the first decade of the 21st century, Islam has had an increasing number of adherents and has been spreading into places where it has never been known" is more viable than "One can expect Islam to continue to increase in numbers and spread into new areas".
Ironclad predictions should be used only of something sure to continue growth or go extinct:
Almost any trend or phenomenon is reversible unless it requires a reversal of an aging process or a defiance of physical law. --Paul from Michigan 10:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I feel that we should add Cunt as one of the words to avoid. There are better, more encyclopedic words, such as vagina, that could be used. The use of the word Cunt on Wikipedia only serves to degrade the level of our encyclopedia.Jimjones5 21:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Haha, that's some funny stuff right there. Tragic romance 05:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Avoid it where? It has its own article. This is silly. It is part of language history, and is a fact whether offensive, profane or whatever.--THE FOUNDERS INTENT TALK 17:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
In section Terrorist, terrorism we state some rules about how to use such words in connection with people and groups. Do the same rules hold for actions that can be labbelled as "terrorist"? If it is or if it is not I think the section should discuss explicitly this case too.--Pokipsy76 08:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I tried my best to clean up the list of "for" and "against" arguments. Please check my changes. Kokot.kokotisko 15:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The kokot link goes to an empty page (as of 10/3/07)) The word "terrorist" may possibly be misused, as is the word "Nazi" - which some take to mean "someone who disagress with me", but there are many cases where it is the only possible word to use. The suicide bomber who blows up a crowded nightclub is a terrorist, working for (or with) other terrorists. The very definition of "terrorist" is "someone whose aim is to induce terror" (someone can double-check with Websters &c). Anyone who commits those sort of actions is by definition a terrorist.
It would be better for the Wiki Masters to say that when that word is used (along with many another word), it should be used accurately.
Imposing PC-speech into the Wiki is not a good idea. Imposing civility can be done without insisting that any truth that someone else may find objectionable must be eliminated! MikeZZ 20:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)MikeZZ
I completely agree with the concept you are stating but I think we must polish the definition to go more sincronized with academic research on the field. Researchers are the ones who more desperatly need a definition since they need to know which actions are included to be able of doing the research. For many years the key concepts have been 1)the action is done by non-govern organizations 2)the targets were non-combatants or were unprevented combatans (e.g. soldiers on leave) and 3)the actions are done to be watched by a third party (public opinion) so not for its tactical value but for sake of propaganda Nowdays it is thouth that a good definition can be "War crimes in situations were is no war". So to be able of using the word without endless discussion we need to sophisticate a little the definition because to say "terrorism is to cause terror" is to go into a swamp because many things cause terror and not all of them are terrorism.--Igor21 15:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
This article says distilling the Pro- and Con- sides into a separate controversy section is bad, since it implies a "hierarchy of fact". But it seems to me that controversy sections can often be very useful-- they can separate univerally-agreed-upon-facts from opinion and make it easier to be sure that both sides of a debate are getting balanced appropriately.
The only commments on that section on the talk pages are old ones that oppose that section. Do people here still strongly believe we shouldn't have controversy sections? and what does "folded into the narrative" even look like?
--Alecmconroy 16:05, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
The subsection begin in this way:
But
So I suggest to modify this introduction.--Pokipsy76 19:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I think this topic is grossly out of place, but since you're already talking about it, I'll add my two cents. Big Bang and Evolution are hypotheses, not theories.Tragic romance 05:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
This section suggests that articles should never have controversy sections in which pro- and con- sides of an issue are discussed. But Wikipedia:Criticism explicitly allows Criticism/Controversy/Reception sections in some cases. Many feature articles have controversy/support/criticism sections, including Igor Stravinsky, Evolution, Boy Scouts of America membership controversies, Metrication, etc.
I'd propose adding language to the "Article structures which can imply a view" section to indicate that while controversy sections should not be used as a tool to marginalize criticism, there are some cases in which controversy sections are useful. --Alecmconroy 14:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
But I really do think we should have a sentence that explicity says that "there are some cases in which controversy sections are useful." It might seem like it's just common sense, but in actuality, people have cited this section to me as evidence that the wikipedia consensus is that controversy sections are never, ever useful. If we don't believe that, we should exspend the extra words to make it clear that they can be useful, so long as they don't marginalize criticism. --Alecmconroy 04:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
So, there's two issues here: (1) what does the current policy actually mean, and (2) what should the policy actually be. Let's ignore the second issue for a moment, just focus on what the current Wikipedia policy on controversy sections actually IS. The way I read the this page's current policy, it means controversy sections are bad and should never be used. Several other people have read the policy and reached the same interpretation. Wikipedia:Criticism seems to have the exact opposite policy, as it explicitly discusses how to write "Response to" sections. So, which is it? Never Useful or Sometimes Useful?
Setting aside my own thoughts on which it should be, it seems that the very least that we should either ADD words to this article to make it consistent with Wikipedia:Criticism, or we should REMOVE words from that article to make it consistent with this article.
--Alecmconroy 12:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
"such articles should always be a neutral evaluation of the critical view, rather than a platform for criticism." - Good point. Tom Harrison Talk 13:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Would someone please weigh in at Talk:Boricua Popular Army? Flybd5 is insisting that it is simply factual to call the Boricua Popular Army "terrorist", and doesn't seem to get my point about why that is inappropriate to say in Wikipedia's narrative voice. Perhaps he will listen to someone else. - Jmabel | Talk 04:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Add User:KazakhPol to that, he seems to be on a mission to label any groups opposed to central asian governments, as terrorists in the narrative voice. Aaliyah Stevens 10:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I noticed "on the other hand" is not much used in articles. It is used a lot in discussion arguments though. I believe good editors do not use it in general in articles. This is because it is like "however". I am wondering whether this should be added as a word to avoid under the category of "however". I see it can be used also to create false balance. EG.
In the first case as an argument: Hitler killed 3 million Jews. On the other hand, he was a good family man.
Or for false balance/argument: Qi Kung has no scientific support. On the other hand, millions of people say that it makes them live longer.
It seems to be very much avoidable as a phrase anyway. So I suggest it be added to words to avoid. Hylas Chung 04:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The section on article titles seems weak to me. In particular, the examples provided seem tendentious without being particularly good examples. But I don't want to plunge in if I'm alone in this. What do others think? - Jmabel | Talk 03:13, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
The title of Islamic extremist terrorism is the result of extensive discussion and compromise. For a while it was changing every week, and probably was at one time Islamic extremist violence or Islamist extremist violence. On the theory that hard cases make bad law, I wonder if there is a better example of a tendentious page title? Tom Harrison Talk 17:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Possibly relevant is Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/State terrorism by United States of America. Tom Harrison Talk 20:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I think "It should be noted" should be added, because that's editorial opinion. Extraordinary Machine 20:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I think that using quotation marks for the purpose of reservation or criticism is bad form. In wikipedia we have the unique capability to link to entries (and chapters therein) when referring to a specific, less common meaning of a word. Although such use of quotations is a vehicle employed in journalism, I think it's improper in an encyclopedia. I find it especially disturbing when used in the "so - called" sense; if, for example, you don't think that the subject is what he says he is - write "self proclaimed". If you think a certain act wasn't done, say "he claims to have [purchsed the land, for example]", or state that the act is unrecognized (by somebody). Quotations just look like a pseudo- subtle snide judgement. Shilonite 09:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I propose a new section, maybe on Village Pump, somthing like the Signpost, but wherever it's relevent, where this section lists word choice for article content. This section, would list, for example: 'Instead of using 'craftsman' or 'craftsmen' in articles, use 'craft worker' or 'craftsperson.'. Another example: 'Do not use the word: 'Indian' to refer to indigenious peoples of the Americas, because 'Indian' most appropriatly refers to a person from or of India.'. This new section would also say help and say that people who come across this section, & people who find errors like listed in said section would correct them. It also has the power to be cited, in discussions, for example: in talk pages, where people blue link, for example 'WP:NPOV' or 'WP:MOS'.100110100 11:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I've read articles, but I don't remeber which ones, which refered to Galicia, but didn't state Iberian Galicia or East European Galicia. Just to let you guys know. Hhhmmmm, maybe it would have been more appropriate to list this in a section, like which that I proposed...............................100110100 11:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I know this has been discussed earlier, but I think the discussion was off the mark. Caucasian does not mean white. East indians are caucasian, for example. Perhaps not in common usage, but it is still technically correct. If you want to say white, say white, or european. Rm999 08:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I would like to add "legendary" to the list of words to avoid. It can mean that the person is very famous; or it can mean that the person is a "myth". You are also suppose to avoid writing that the person is "famous", it should be self evident from the biography. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 19:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
There were a number of misconceptions that had crept into the discussion of the word "theory" on this page. First of all, a "law" is not a "stronger version" of a theory as is often misconceived. A law is a succinct statement of a principle based on a theory. Inasmuch as a theory is correct, a law is correct. Unlike theories, laws do not lend themselves to easy modification. If a theory is disproven, it may be possible to modify it so it still has utility (for example, one can still use epicycles to model the orbital motion of certain objects), but laws are necessarily abandonded once disproven (for example, saying that the planets move according to their spheres in epicyclic fashion is a law of Ptolemaic astronomy which does not apply to the natural world).
Also it is inappropriate to say that theories are ever "proven". Theories are by definition empirical and based on induction. There is always doubt. Mathematical beasts which are proven are not theories.
--ScienceApologist 11:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I propose that words "denial" and "deny" should be avoided or their use should be somehow defined. They are widely used in Wiki despite their obvious nature that falls into "Words which can advance a point of view" cathegory.neurobio 01:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I do agree with a majority of this section, but a couple things bother me about it. First, that the word "cult" should be avoided at all possible except for reasons X and Y and so on. Yet farther down in the section it states that the word has acceptable usage with concern to religious practices. The use of the word cult as it pertains to to religious practices is the SOLE reason why it's offensive and should be avoided. Along with the first two paragraphs, we should reserve the use of the word "cult" to those groups who truly and blatantly deserve it (ex. Branch-Davidians under Koresh) and/or ones that masquerade as religion (ex. Scientology).
Thing #2 that rubs me sideways is the example in this section "the cult of Demeter at Eleusis". The de-centralized nature of Hellenism can lead people to assume that they were cults (that is, if those people prescribe to what's written on this page and not the view I've written here). In actuality, sect is the appropriate term, regardless of the era in which you are discussing. User:MrFuchs 03OCT06
I understand why "cult" should be avoided, but I think we're playing with a little too much political correctness here. For example, should we avoid using the word "cult" when discussing Jonestown? Or Heaven's Gate? These groups almost DEFINE the word itself, and if you cannot use it in that context, you might as well eliminate the word from the dictionary. Yes, people considered Christianity as a cult- now it is not, because it is mainstream. So? What's the problem? We need words to be used to describe things, and you cannot possibly divorce language from culture. As I understand Jonestown is more an exception than a rule, I am not saying we should suddenly start using 'cult' all over the place- I just hope people are willing to use the WP:Ignore_All_Rules rule with regard to these "words to be avoided" when necessary. Epthorn 13:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi everyone. FYI there is a discussion and proposal in Wikipedia talk:Naming conflict about use of strong words such as "massacre" and "genocide" in article names. Naming guidelines on a few pages, including this one, conflict with each other. Kla'quot 19:00, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
If it is not appropriate to say that a news agency "reported" something, what verb would be preferred? - Jmabel | Talk 01:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
So the debate is happening again on Talk:al-Qaeda. Feel free to add your 2 cents. Ungovernable ForceGot something to say? 06:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
What about tragic? I think that presents a non-npov, especially in the context of "a tragic accident". I also think that referring to the dead as "the late" should be added somewhere as well. Everyone will die sometime, and for the most part, it's just clutter, throws off verb tenses and is somewhat npov, as it portrays the deceased in a positive light. And I don't see any mention of saying someone has "passed away", which implies similar instances. 69.209.100.255 20:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
That a company may have been part of the one's affiliated with Enron (to use the example given) is generally a question of fact. Sometimes "subsidiary" can be used, but "afiliated" is in this context a neutral descriptor of a financial relationship.
This is not necessarily true of other uses, where there is no formal relationship: "Communist-affiliated" is an example of where it is intended to imply that a relationship exists, whichmay or may not be correct. If there's no objection, I'll substitute my example.DGG 23:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Why is this section included? The enclosing section indicates that terrorist and terrorism are words to be avoided, yet this subsection indicates that a lack of consensus exists. Wikipedia inconsistenly describes groups and events as terrorist in the narrative voice. For example IRA, Al-Qaida are not but Oklahoma bombing and 9/11 are. This gives much confusion. Either we agree that Wikipedia editors makes judgements about which events and groups are terrorist or we don't. At the moment, it is confusing. Curtains99 15:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to add to this guideline that editors should not use words such as "sadly" and "tragically" when referring to deaths. It's very common on Wikipedia and I think wrong for these reasons:
I've seen editors often try to add this word when people disagree with gay rights. The term may work in a given context (e.g., someone who says "fags should die"), but I think in general, this would be a good one to add (much like "cult/sect", which can describe a group, but should generally be off limits). We could suggest other wording like "opposes expanding gay rights", "opposes homosexual marriage", or "believe marriage is sinful"? This might look like a biased request, but it's really not - homophobic is a pejorative and POV term, and should not be used to refer to people and their opinions. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 18:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Patstuart that we should avoid the term homophobia within articles as much as possible. The article Homophobia itself (currently protected) says the term is a loaded one, and this would be perfectly in line with the existing guidelines on this page which say to avoid labels given only by external groups. Declaring someone homophobic should need to be given in the context of a specific person claiming so (and properly cited). We presently try to avoid even identifying people's sexuality unless it is relevant to the actions or notability of the individual due to WP:BLP concerns, why would this be any different?
To answer Durova's concern, I believe the proper descriptor for those groups which opposed interracial marraige would be racialist if they claimed to oppose it for reasons other than racial supremacism. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 06:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
"Homophobic" means fear. "Phobia" [5] means "fear" or an emotion closely akin to "fear". To accuse someone of fear, such as "you are afraid of wriggle worms so anything you say isn't worth a squiggle" is a way of wriggling out of the conversation. It is a way of reducing the communication instead of a way of bettering the communication. In addition the word has overtones of psychology. It would be WP:CIVIL not accuse an editor, "You are afraid !" and it would be civil to not accuse an editor of homophobia. It is not likely to be productive in most communications. But hey, we can't ban the use of a word. Terryeo 13:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
To say that someone who disagrees with Orson Scott Card could be called "Moron-phobic" or "Christian-phobic" is in no way comparable with homophobic. If you called someone with a visceral hatred of Card "Cardophobic" you might be on the same page, but disagreeing with Card is not the same as hating Mormons or Christians. That's simply ridiculous.
If "homophobic" should be avoided, what other term do you suggest for the fear and hatred with which people treat homosexuality? In the aftermath of the latest homophobe-turns-out-to-be-gay episode, it's probably true that fear is the major driver of anti-gay hate. Regardless, "homophobia" is a well-established term for this commonplace anti-gay hatred. If you consider this a word to avoid, what replacement do you propose for it? I think it's more neutral than the far more accurate "anti-gay hatemongering". Guettarda 00:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
When is the word 'murder' acceptable in place of 'kill'? Presumably, some Palestinians see the assassination of Hamas leaders by Israel as murder while Israelis see suicide bombers as murderers, yet is murder an NPOV description for either event? 213.202.152.63 00:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
It might seem only subtle but the word "score" inappropriately and unfoundedly implies something such as a test has merit which is a conclusion that is often disputed and definitely uncited as in "here is your IQ test score" (note: IQ tests and testing are highly disputed). The word "result" is much more neutral in that context, I am open to other alternatives. Just because someone wrote a "test" doesn't mean its "score" has any absolute meaning. Someone else claims that "score" is the most common way of describing IQ test numbers, but I think that within a neutral encyclopedia a subject should be presented using neutral words, not words cherry picked from within a controversial and disputed subjects' own paradigm. I propose we add "score" to the list of words to avoid generally within Wikipedia. zen apprentice T 21:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think Wikipedia:Avoid weasel terms should be merged with Wikipedia:Words to avoid. Both this article and Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms should remain as indipendent entries. Interconnected may be, but not merged. Or, would you rather prefer a labyrinthine and hoplessly long Wikipedia:Words to avoid article? Is it not a WP convention to break long articles down to smaller and simpler articles? - Aditya Kabir 16:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm with you on this. Wikipedia:Words to avoid is already big, and these are each pretty concrete issue distinct from its main thrust. - Jmabel | Talk 07:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Another agreement here. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. :) --DarthBinky 21:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, no merge. Mumby 19:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree these three articles should not be merged, as they convey different things. Dieter Simon 01:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
This is an awful policy that is routinely ignored, as it should be. See Allegations of Israeli apartheid, Islamic extremism, and Islamic extremist terrorism which are blatant violations of these "words to avoid." This is supposed to be English Wikipedia, not French Wikipedia. KazakhPol 04:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The term "notable" indicates the opinion that something is noteworthy, an inappropriate and unnecessary judgement.
Notable is fine as a term to use within projectspace, but it seems like its use on internal pages has led people to think it's ok to use in articles. We use it internally to refer to specific standards chosen by consensus, but those are still a particular POV--the "wikiconsensus" pov--which we shouldn't endorse with our prose, except by our choices of inclusion. A much better alternative is to specify whatever makes them notable directly, such as media attention, specific accomplishment, or some other aspect. Any comments on adding it to the page? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 22:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The last, in particular, I would hate to see changed. - Jmabel | Talk 02:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The first two are exactly examples of unnecessary use. Someone from Bloomsbury could easily have different ideas about what makes it notable. As for the third, I don't really like it because it's an analytical statement that needs support or is OR. The article has no citations, so the article has no support for what it includes. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 08:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Please note that as provided under the official policy Wikipedia: What Wikipedia is not, Wikipedia is NOT censored. Right now, one of the reasons to avoid a word is because it is derogatory or offensive. This is NOT a reason to avoid using a word under official wikipedia policy, as Wikipedia is not censored. Therefore, this should be removed. There are other reasons we don't use words like nigger routinely. Titanium Dragon 00:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
There is disagreement over how "purported" and "alleged" should be used in the article John Edward (history), particularly over these cases (with examples of relevant edits):
Under WP:WTA and WP:NPOV, should "purported" and "alleged" be avoided in these cases? Clarification would be greatly appreciated. — Elembis 23:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
In the term "Psychic Medium", "psychic" is not a POV qualifier, it is a type of medium. There are different types of mental mediums and physical mediums, so there's nothing POV about it. Dreadlocke ☥ 17:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I really hope we can agree on a verifiable, neutral description of what Edward is; if we can't, it looks like the consensus will be "performs" in the article and a blank Occupation field (or one which reads "Performer" if no one objects). I still support "purport", but I understand that some people consider its use pejorative, so I'll propose something else: what about "profess"?
Webster's says the word means "... (2a) to declare or admit openly or freely; affirm (2b) to declare in words or appearances only; pretend, claim (3) to confess one's faith in or allegiance to (4a) to practice or claim to be versed in (a calling or profession) ...". Look up the linked terms and you'll see that, like "perform", the word has positive, neutral and negative common meanings, is not pejorative, and is not mentioned on WP:WTA or WP:WEASEL (which is not to say that it's automatically the right word). "Professed psychic medium" doesn't sound at all pejorative to me (it even sounds a little illustrious); at the same time, it doesn't sound like an automatic confirmation. I think it's perfect. — Elembis 02:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it is not bad at all.Belbo Casaubon 11:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Rather than statig that a scientific law is "Scientific principles that are succinctly stated", it might be better to say that a scentific law is a statement that is universally observed to hold true. Thus "laws" are about observations, and "theories" are our explanations of those observations. Thus, the kinetic theory of heat explains (accounts for) the laws of thermodynamics. Paul Murray 19:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I deleted a closing statement that was in contradiction with the wording on WP:NPOV. The proposal at Wikipedia:Criticism, has not been accepted by the community despite being a proposal for many months.. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Neutral or not?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 22:19, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong with suggesting dubiousness when such dubiousness cannot be disputed by any reasonable person; the paranoid schizophrenics are an example of that. This example should be changed to something where the dubiousness would be much more problematic, e.g., "Some religious believers claim that it is impossible to lead a moral life without believing in a deity."--Eloquence* 11:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe "claim" can sometimes be used in an NPOV manner- but it is rare, and I can't think of an example now.
I agree with this: "clearly state from reliable sources what the various and significant sides of an issue are. We should never imply"
The most important thing to remember about the word "claim" is that it is seldom really necessary. Where the NPOV word "say" cannot be substituted, the text can almost always be redone to make such a word unnecessary. Where it is necessary, it should be obvious that it means not that the claim is dubious, but that the truth of it is, without bias, simply unknown. English, as with all language, is extremely nuanced, and this nuance is what we are talking about, not merely technical fact.
Thus, in the example by Eloquence "Some religious believers claim that it is impossible to lead a moral life without believing in a deity", one can simply make it NPOV by changing "claim" to "say." The word "believers" is here NPOV, but only because in the particular context of religion the word "belief" is not strictly contrasted with "knowledge" and not a near equivalent of "opinion," but is rather contrasted with "unbelief" which is negative. So from a context outside the religion, which is the Wikipedia perspective, the word "believer" merely says that the people are inside the system, not outside it.
In DreadLocke's example, "Paranoid schizophrenics typically claim that some people are tracking their movements in an attempt to harm them." becomes "Paranoid schizophrenics typically say that some people are tracking their movements in an attempt to harm them."
But replacing the word "claim" with "believe" would also be POV, because of the nuances stated above.
"If we do blur the line for these WTA, then it’s a slippery slope and we will have editors making value judgments and being able to actually add a WTA with the express purpose of creating a subtle bias."
Agreed.Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 20:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
KazakhPol just unilaterally split-off this section into his own version of the guideline, Wikipedia:Designated terrorist organizations. I think it should be redirected for now, as such actions should be done after a consensus is reached, not before. Khoikhoi 01:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
The article Islam and antisemitism currently has the sentence "Cowardice, greed, and chicanery are but a few of the characteristics that the Qur'an ascribes to the Jews." Whether that is true or not I would argue that "are but a few" is unencyclopedic because of its attempt to portray a greater magnitude than is cited. How exactly would you describe this issue? It's not really weasel words or peacock terms... Thanks. gren グレン 09:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm having some problems with the use of "the late" to signify that someone is dead or that the article's subject dealt with someone who has died. Examples include "the late Ronald Reagan" or "the late Steve Irwin". I don't think it should be used in most cases, as everyone dies sometime, and the fact that someone may be dead is usually not important in the scope of the article. And if they don't know that someone is dead, the name is usually linked, and they can find out that way. I would like something amended in this page to reflect that. Booshakla 23:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I don't see anything particularly wrong with removing "the late" from articles and I think that the term is generally unencyclopedic and entirely unnecessary. I will remind Ramdrake that content disputes should not go to WP:AN/I and that Booshakla's initial bold edits where in good faith and not disruptive. It will also remind Booshakla and others not to violate WP:3RR when dealing with content disputes. --Farix (Talk) 03:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
A better alternative to saying "the late" is to give the birth and death years in brackets after the name. This gives more information about when the person died. So, for example, talking about a new crocodile protection program, you could say "Crocodile Protector was inspired by the animal conservationist and TV presenter Steve Irwin (1962-2006)" or ""Crocodile Protector was inspired by the animal conservationist and TV presenter Steve Irwin, who died in 2006" or "Crocodile Protector was founded a year after the death of the animal conservationist and TV presenter Steve Irwin (1962-2006)". Carcharoth 10:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems like this could reasonably be worked out case by case. Use it when it works, don't when it doesn't. Tom Harrison Talk 15:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I guess I will chime in both places as I do not know how the internal debate of moving will turn out. I think the suggestion given above of putting the birth and death dates after the first mention of a name in an article would be a better idea then stating "the late", in as many letters we can achieve something much more informative and still maintain an encyclopedic style over editorial style. --NuclearZer0 04:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I posted this on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography page but I thought I'd stick it in here as it might be useful. This is my take on the discussion above;
Madmedea 11:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Just a couple of comments for Zer0:
A few more comments. Booshakla says "You don't need it when you talk about a dead person with an article here, cause you can just click the link to find out." - if the reader of the article needs to know that the person being mentioned is dead, then you must state that in the article in question. You can never rely on someone going to another article to find this out. Going to another article is for background information only. Each article must be self-contained and be able to be read as a whole, without requiring the reader to constantly look at other pages to find out relevant information. Of course, if the death and/or date is not relevant, then don't mention it at all. It is the context which is important. Another example is mentioning a 20th-century author in the middle of a paragraph about 14th-century literature. The mention would have to make clear that the new name is not another 14th-century author, but is a 20th-century author.
Madmedea said "Another argument is that the phrase is "unencylopaedic" but as WP:NOT and the AfD guidance states, this is never a very good argument as "Wikipedia is not a paper encylopaedia". What I think is meant is that using the "the late..." does not sound like the tone of an encyclopaedia - more like an obituary, or newspaper article." - I agree entirely. The AfD guidance mentions WP:NOT a paper encyclopedia to point out matters of article size and multimedia content and internal linking. It does not refer to 'encyclopedic tone'. That is non-negotiable. The articles still have to have a neutral, and professional tone. Newspaper journalism and editorial style is not appropriate in an encyclopedia. Carcharoth 16:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
There are lots more POV adjectives and adverbs, of course, but I've seen a lot of them used in this sort of way: "John Doe was fired as coach after just one season". This serves to create the impression that he was not given a chance and that the action was premature. It could be that these words are not on the list because they also can be used, with different denotations, in a way that does not convey POV. If this list is intended only for words that are generally inappropriate, rather than just inappropriate in a certain usage, then disregard. Croctotheface 06:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Should "recent" and "recently" be added to words to avoid? Quite often editors who are too lazy to/unable to date an event write that it happened "recently", but the text persists in Wikipedia long after the event is "recent". Much better to put "in 2003...", or even "in the early 2000s..." (Or is this more an example of weasel words?) Rocksong 04:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Aha. I've just discovered Wikipedia:Avoid statements that will date quickly. It seems the real problem is the lack of a decent Wikipedia Help Contents! Rocksong 12:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I have a question, which may have arisen before. If calling a particular organization or individual as terrorist is inappropriate, then why is there a Category:Terrorism? My particular concern is with ASALA, an organization whose members were charged, convicted and sentenced for numerous bombing attacks killing civilians en masse as well as pointed assassinations. And also with Monte Melkonian, who was a member of ASALA, was convicted of assassinations and attacks, yet called a "freedom fighter" and not in Category:Terrorism. For some reason, my attempt [8] to insert Category:Terrorism on ASALA based on three references to the U.S. State Department classifying the organization as such [9], [10], [11] was countered with an argument that this term should not be used [12] and with reference to this page [13]. Can anyone provide an explanation on the policy and the category? Thanks. Atabek 10:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I've added a new section at WP:WTA#Scandal, controversy, affair, which I hope is fairly self-explanatory and sensible. I'd appreciate any feedback that other contributors may have. -- ChrisO 20:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Section looks fine. Could we drop "invariably used to" from "Editors should therefore exercise great caution in using the term, as its strong negative connotations are invariably used to imply wrongdoing." ending it instead "...since it implies wrongdoing?" One can always find changes to reduce word count, to the point of quibbling. Cheers, AndersW (talk) 04:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Currently there is this sentence, which was introduced 19 June 2006: The so-called pro-life movement comprises those who believe abortion should be illegal. [So-called suggests that they are not, in fact, "pro-life". Whether this is true is debatable, so instead make it clear who calls them that—use self-described, or rephrase to "the movement generally known as pro-life . . .".] However, the general running consensus/compromise on WikiProject Abortion is to respect self-identity and to not add qualifications to the titles of the movements. This way, we avoid people using terms like "pro-death" "anti-choice" "anti-life" and so on. Also, "pro-abortion" is a misnomer because very few people are FOR abortion per see, while "anti-abortion" doesn't accurately describe the movement because euthanasia and stem cell research and other issues are often involved (see Terri Schavio). The working consensus is to use "pro-life" and "pro-choice" to describe the movements and the political position and leave it at that. However, these guidelines seem to suggest that its ok to question the accuracy of these terms in the article space (the pro-choice and pro-life articles talk about term controversy). I however do not feel that this debate through be brought out on every single abortion page that mentions "pro-life" and "pro-choice". I would suggest removing this as an example. Thanks for your consideration.-Andrew c 00:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I suggest we add a section on avoiding misplaced formality and fancy law words, such as:
We should be projecting our content succinctly and plainly, but without restorting to simple english. Our goal is not to write law contracts and Shakesperian plays, or to show off our vocabulary. As User:Tony1 says so well on his User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a: "Wikipedia needs to appeal to a wide range of native and non-native speakers, many of whom are time-poor. Writing plain English is a good way to achieve this. Many writers want to write text with an air of authority, and use longer-than-necessary and/or old-fashioned forms in the hope of appearing more formal. In most cases, you'll get your point across more effectively by avoiding the following words and phrases..." — Deckiller 15:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The guideline says nothing about "hints/hinted at". Can I cite an author like that, when I have the exact quote?
And, secondly, I didn't manage to find anything in the citation or ref pages about direct quotes worked into the footnotes. I vaguely remember reading about that. Can anyone tell me how, or if it is a good idea at all? —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 13:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it needs to be made clear the word purported actually carries the connotation of falsehood or lie, and the prohibition against using it should be made stronger.
From the Webster's Online Dictionary:
Webster’s online definition of purported:
Webster’s defines specious as:
With these definitions, there can be absolutely no doubt that “purported” is a word loaded with bias and should not be used.
The word "Professed" can be used in cases where there is a need for showing that a person has made a doubtful claim. Dreadstar ☥ 03:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm constantly coming across sentences in the form of "X famously did Y". I think this word should enter the list of Words to Avoid. A famous event is famous only to those who already know about it. This is an encyclopedia, it's full of "famous" information - but more importantly than that, its main purpose is to provide information to those who don't already know about it. Even telling the uninformed that a particular event is famous - which may well be a fact - is to downplay all the other famous events in the subject's life. JackofOz 22:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The problem is, JackofOz, this page seems to get used as a list of words to never use rather than a list of words to avoid (I have personally experienced this at FAC, unfortunately). That is why conditionals should exist on the page. As to your other point, wikipedia is already telling its readers what they should know. We read reliable sources and summarize them - in wikipedia's opinion, our readers should know what the scholarly consensus is on any given topic. That, I might add, is already taking a position on what kinds of knowledge our readers should be exposed to. There are plenty of people who discount scholarly work and the scientific method, principles that wikipedia adheres to. Those views are rarely represented on wikipedia. Let me be clear, I am not endorsing those views, I am just pointing out that wikipedia has already taken a stand on what kinds of knowledge its readers "should" have. Obviously I agree with that stand, or I wouldn't bother to write articles here. :) On a more practical note, if I were writing an article, I would use "famously" when I saw sources doing so or something equivalent. That way it would not be me choosing, but experts on, say, George Washington. Awadewit 06:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
This seems to be used a lot as a label without much regard for its meaning or lack of it. What finally drove me here to complain is the article on actress Mimi Rogers. She was in one movie with a Christian theme which was called "controversial" with no details given. A little down the page another movie is mentioned in which she was nude for the whole thing. This one was not called "controversial." Steve Dufour 01:45, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Quite the contary. Take this example:
This sentence imlies that Turkey is objecting to the mention of the Armenian genocide. But Turkey is objecting to the allegation that what happened in Armenia was a genocide. The easiet way to fix that sentence is to say:
With the inclusion of the word alledged, the sentence has a balanced POV, without it is does not carry a NPOV.--Philip Baird Shearer 16:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The link is to Armenian genocide so someone is always going to edit such sentences to include the phrase Armenian genocide. Of course the whole article can be re-written to have a more balanced POV, but the point is that the sentence at the start of this section is not correct. --Philip Baird Shearer 07:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The Turkish government does not agree with you. When reporting the incident Reuters for example is careful not to use the term instead it phrases it like this. "A U.N. exhibit on the 13th anniversary of the Rwanda genocide has been delayed after Turkish objections to a mention of the killing of Armenians in Turkey during World War One, organizers said on Monday."[14]. That Armenians were killed is not the issue the issue is whether it was a genocide and as Wikipedia has a neutral point of view policy it ought not state unequivocally that it was a genocide as it implies that the Turkish government is wrong which is not a NPOV. BTW Reuters does not say the "killings in Rwanda" it uses the term "Rwanda genocide" because an international tribunal has found that genocide took place in Rwanda. --Philip Baird Shearer 23:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a difference, the German government, most of the German population and all German historians agree that the Holocaust was a genocide, so that argument is a straw man because you are not comparing like with like. But all this this is besides the point. There are many instances where the use of allegedly is appropriate, particularly in articles when one is reporting what another has said without quoting them. Other wise it can be taken to mean that Wikipedia supports the position. For example: Turkey alleges that the mass killings of Armenians was not a genocide.
Another example:
I do not see that words such as claim and allege should not be used in Wikipedia as they can be used to enhance a neutral point of view. --Philip Baird Shearer 17:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted this, as I don't agree that murder & assassinations are exclusively legal terms, and that truth is not only given by legal means, but also historical methods. Tazmaniacs 20:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Much like the word "massacre" deserves debate, I would like to open a discussion about using "slaughter" to discuss human deaths and/or killings. I had noticed it used on the Holocaust and Auschwitz pages and changed it for being too editorial. Furthermore, Primo Levi is cited in the second paragraph of this section and makes a great point—nobody should be dehumanized. I hope this might work as an example for "massacre" as well; what do we all think—keep it to "kill(ed)," "died" or "murdered?" (the latter, of course, when legally established) --Parhamr 22:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Other uses of "slaughter:"
--Parhamr 22:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
See archives
This debate has already been adressed a number of times. Editors seem to agree that left and right are standard names used in politics to describe parties, especially in European context. There is therefore no reason to avoid describing, say, the French National Front as a far-right party, as it is described as such by all mainstream political scientists, is referred as such in the press, sits on the far-right in the French National Assembly and so on. However, precise descriptions are valued to explain this qualification (in the case of National Front, Holocaust denial is one, racism and hate speeches is another). It should be obvious, furthermore, that when refering to a French article, the term "far right" or "far left" refers to the French political context, and that when refering to China, the terms refers to the Chinese context. Tazmaniacs 21:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The section on terrorism begins with the following statement: "This section is about using the terms in articles. For use of the category:terrorists, see the definition there.". This begs the question - why is it somehow special in that the rest of the section does not apply to it? I think that, whatever the policy is, it should be consistently adhered to, in articles and categories alike. I fail to see the difference between labelling a person "terrorist" in the text of the article and putting him in the respective category (which is visible in the article anyway). -- int19h 17:51, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I've been combing policy/guideline pages for a basic article about "sensitivity", but there doesn't seem to be one. (Maybe I'm wrong, and somebody can correct me.) By sensitivity, I mean the use of language and characterizations that are not offensive on the basis of race, sex, sexual orientation, political views, etc. This guideline is a good start in this regard, but the issue goes far beyond just "words to avoid". Language can be insensitive, derogatory, and offensive, even though the words used are all fine and dandy.
The page could discuss various ways of characterizing people, and if there is consensus that a particular expression or characterization is offensive, the guideline could say it should be avoided. For example, maybe there is a consensus that you shouldn't:
There could be lots of things like this that don't quite fit into this guideline. Any comments? COGDEN 09:18, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
This section is way too long and much of it is unnecessary. For example a party to an legitimate armed conflict including the US Army who is quoted as defining terror as "the calculated use of violence to attain political or religious ideological goals through intimidation, coercion or instilling fear" use these methods when engaged in a legitimate armed conflict under military necessity. As the article on Terrorism section ejorative use makes clear this is a pejorative word.
I think the current section needs replacing with one discussing the words Extremest, Terrorist and Freedom fighter. I suggest this is used as an introduction:
--Philip Baird Shearer 14:18, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
"Do not use theory to mean guess or speculation. Words for guesses or speculations in science and history include "hypothesis" and "conjecture"."
Finally I see this somewhere on Wikipedia :D. I'm so glad, I've corrected that mistake and changed it to either hypothesis or conjecture so often. --Taraborn 17:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Seems to me that the acceptable use example is unacceptable:
"Homeopathy is a pseudoscientific approach to healing"
In fact, earlier in the section we see the following proposed:
"...the Homeopathy article factually states that "It is growing in popularity... but neither its empirical nor its hypothetical foundation meets minimum scientific standards..."
This leads me to believe that the "acceptable use" example is mistakenly designated as such. I'm going to change it. In fact, I think the whole section could use a little cleanup. I hope my changes are agreeable.
btw, I think that particular example is a load of crap, since "pseudoscientific" is defined as not meeting minimum scientific standards. We'd have to identify whose scientific standards we're talking about and who says that homeopathy isn't meeting them to be 100% kosher.--Kangaru99 07:23, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Which is better:
"Report" is a simple and unobjectionable word that performs a vital function, and no convincing case is made for its inclusion on this list. Frankly, I would have thought that it is used thousands of times in Wikipedia, and is appropriate in just about all of them. Dominictimms
In the article El Al (which is currently nominated for FA), I made some remarks about the use of the word "terrorism" in the article to describe the attacks or highajcking attempts made on the airline. My concerns have been responded to positively by User:Flymeoutofhere who replaced many of the word by "attacks" and "attackers". While there is no more direct description of individuals as terrorists, it is still getting round when using "Jet era and terrorism" as a title for a section describing these attacks, or using the phrase Due to terrorist actions on El Al throughout its history and El Al experienced what would become the first of many instances of terrorism against the airline. As I interpreted the guideline, any instance of the word "terrorism" should be abolished unless it is explicitely mentioned who did such allegations. Should this be applied to the article. You opinions are welcomed. Thank you. CG 08:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The idea that using the word "terrorism" is necesarily POV is not evident. There is something that must have a name and all the others cannot refer to it. There is a modus operandi (small ilegal secret organizations targeting soft-targets for the sake of doing propaganda of their ideas) that can only be named by the word "terrorism". The fact that this word is misused by some administrations to criminalize its enemies and by some organizations to hide its methods does not mean that we cannot agree in a way of using the word less stringent that not using at all. This policy causes absurd situations in many articles like in 9/11 were we are forced to found bizarre expresions and baroque sintaxis to describe the people leading the planes to WTC. IMHO this policy must be trimmed finding a consensus (either a proper definition or if worse goes to worst a simple list of what is considered "terrorism"). In the article "terrorism" it says that there are 100 definitions to emphasize the dificulties of defining it but this is a sophisme. There are many definitions because the frontiers are blur but there is a core of actions that are always named as terrorism by all the academic experts. So to be in the safe side, we can adopt a policy that ensures that the blur frontiers are not included but it is counterproductive to elmiminate the word. Also IMHO "terrorism" has negative connotations because the actions described by the word are seen as against human kind by everybody. Not using the word is to mask reality since the reader can think that some group is not commiting such actions when in reality is doing so. Since Bush administration is using this word more as an insult than as a description, to say "USA administration consideres that group as terrorist" is water down the facts since the real phrase in some cases should be "this group is involved in actions that cannot be properly qualified in any other way than calling them terrorism". Since terrorism is in all the newspapers daily, it is urgent that we have a proper definition that can be used whithout judging if the group who does is in his right or not. --Igor21 11:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
It is christal that a person who hijacked a plane is a terrorist. It can be a good idea to avoid the use in the doubtful cases but not using it when is clearly the word to use it is as POV as using it when is not appropiate.--Igor21 18:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
No, he was not. Terrorism require that the acts commited have a simbolic content and that would be considered crimes of war in case of a war. So he did comply with none of the characteristics.To be honest, I do not see the point of you enigmas. You always look of limit cases and this is OK to state that the fronteers are blur but it is clear that there is a core where there is no doubt. Can we agree in defintion of terrorims as "acts of political violence aimed not to reach factual advantage but to create psicological impressions and that in a context of war would be war crimes"? In fact my favorite one is "War crimes commited in the absence of war" because do not need to interpret the intentions of the authors. Sorry for annoying you but in Spanish wikipedia people is using this doctrine of "words to avoid" as a way to not call terrorists Black September or the Tamil Tigers. I have been reading a lot about terrorism and I have found that there are objective ways to define. The key is to not speak about the nature of the victims or the aim of the authors but about how it would fit in the context of a war.--Igor21 20:19, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Now its me who cannot understand your point. Are you saying that you cannot distinguish at sight a crime of war from and act of war?
With due respect, I think you are confusing two completeley different things : the nature of the acts and the nature of the authors. The authors can be either combatants or non-combatans and the acts can be regular or not (directed to destroy an armed enemy or directed to create "sensations" on civilian population). So this two parameters determine four subsets of political violence. My point (in fact Alex Schmidt's and John Horgan's who are respected investigators on the field) is that political violence can be divided in four subsets attending to the value of these two parameters.
The attractive of this is that all violence can be clasified and the discussion about each case is about which is the subset were the particular act must mus be included, so is no more about intentions or legitimacy. This not to say that "war is good" or "crimes of war are better or equal to terrorism". Is just a way to clasify facts to help its study since each of these subsets needs to be adressed separetely since is a different pathology of human societies and to study all together does not help at all.
Thanks for you patience.--Igor21 18:11, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
There has been debate about the appropriateness and accuracy of using the word 'slaughter' to discuss death/killing/murder of humans. This debate has particularly occurred regarding The Holocaust's article. I wish to include the following for debate, particularly regarding the holocaust but also applying to 'slaughter' across Wikipedia as a whole:
Yad Vashem's publications state:
"I don't think that we, today, should use a term that was used during the Holocaust with quite a different connotation." —Professor Yehuda Bauer, Director of the International Center for Holocaust Studies of Yad Vashem [15]
"The collective blame laid by Israelis on the victims as people who went 'like sheep to the slaughter' was due to ignorance of the circumstances of the Holocaust and the ways in which it took place." —Frumi Shehori [16]
"If Jewish resistance was glorified, the six million Holocaust victims were often anything but. Those who did not resist with arms (or at least flee the Nazi onslaught) were often portrayed in the literature as having gone to their deaths 'like sheep to the slaughter.' " —Dr. Robert Rozett [17]
A section on "Emotive words" added. FT2 (Talk | email) 11:55, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the section "Words that can convey or create an emotive stance" because although it may be true the the examples were not good ones and without the two examples this section did not give any advice that was specific enough to warrant a section in this guideline. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Add this one? See Wikipedia:Centralized_discussion/Apartheid covering whether reference to french Algerians in France, and similar situations worldwide, should be described by a term that has specific connotations and meaning, including separation by means of law. FT2 (Talk | email) 11:55, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Rolls eyes. The Allegations of Israeli Apartheid article has already survived several votes on afd, and several more attempts at backdoor deletion. It doesn't matter for our purposes if the analogy is fair -- what's important is that it's been the subject of extensive debate by notable public figures.
Btw, notwithstanding SlimVirgin's impressionistic reading of history, the "whole series of long-standing disputes" was started well before Allegations of Israeli Apartheid was created. CJCurrie 16:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with SlimVirgin's statement above; she has done a good job of summarizing the reasons why "apartheid" should be listed as a "word to avoid" in article titles outside the one context in which it was an official government policy, that is, South Africa in its apartheid era. 6SJ7 00:54, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I would also support limiting editorial usage of "apartheid" to South African history, especially since the other entries created don't deal with allegations of racial discrimination, only national or socio-economic. TewfikTalk 20:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I think that the term "apartheid" is invoked for different purposes, and this gives rise to the controversy:
I don't think anyone's debating the notability of #1. And I would hope that #2 in itself does not qualify for Wikipedia. As for number 3, this is where it gets interesting, especially if we are to differentiate it from #2. Analysts, activists, writers, etc., may illustrate trends they're concerned about by essentially saying that these trends are pointing toward something we should all agree is an undesirable state of affairs, in that it is similar to apartheid in one or several ways. They are not, obviously, concerned about proving that the feared state of affairs is exactly like apartheid, only that it is, or might become, similar enough to be worried about. On the other hand, political activists will use that same rationale for partisan purposes. In my mind, the possibility of blurring between #2 and #3 should give anyone reason to use the term carefully, if nothing else. On the other hand, if we are going to include it all, we can't possibly decide which comparisons are more apt than others. --Leifern 15:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Allegations of Apartheid are inherhently bad articles. Wikipedia should make it word to avoid in ARTICLE NAMES (outside of south africa subject) period solving all problems. The allegations can be detailed in segregation articles/discrimination articles and so on. But it has to be a generic total change of policy, not per article. Amoruso 17:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The "apartheid" horse left the barn several decades ago. Wikipedia can no more dicatate that the word can only apply to South Africa any more than you can rule that the word "dictator" according to its original definition as the "title of a magistrate in ancient Rome appointed by the Senate to rule the state in times of emergency". There are numerous scholarly works that apply the term apartheid outside of South Africa in concepts such as "social apartheid", "religious apartheid", "gender apartheid" etc and with the OED recognizing that the term has alternate acceptable uses WP is in no place to overrule. A more practical proposal is to avoid the words "allegations of" in titles as they lower the bar for acceptance since any off hand use of the term by a politician or commentator can fit and since it's a rather weasely way to get around neutrality by back-handidly suggesting that a term's use is inappropirate. Lothar of the Hill People 20:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Apartheid is a pejorative term. They are words with intrinsically negative connotations that are generally applied to one's enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees and whose opinions and actions one would prefer to ignore. Use of the terms "apartheid", "segregation" and "right to auto-defense" implies a moral judgment; and if one party can successfully attach the label to a group, then it has indirectly persuaded others to adopt its moral viewpoint. :-)
I had thought this was a no-brainer. However, many articles describe certain teachings as heresies, certain people as heretics, and either as heretical. There are times when it is appropriate to say that author X, group X, institution X, etc. condemns Y as heretical, but it presumably violates WP:NPOV for Wikipedia to condemn Y as heretical. Moreover, many editors regard such descriptions as perfectly NPOV, remove POV and POV-statement tags, etc. Jacob Haller 23:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
No-brainer. I brought this up a while ago on Talk:Early_Christianity#Neutrality, and was basically told "well Catholics call them 'heresies', so that's what we're going to use in the article." So our articles are written from a Catholic Point of View now? — Omegatron 22:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
↑↑↑↑ HAVE WE HAD ENOUGH WITH THE WORDSMITHING?? ♠If Wikipedia decides to go PC, I may go postal. Who's with me??? Jacob, if the Catholics say it, that doesn't mean Wiki says it, it means that the Catholics say it. Get a life!--THE FOUNDERS INTENT TALK 04:05, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Per WP:MOSISLAM#Martyrs, Muslims who die for their religion can't be described as martyrs. But what of those of other religions? Can they be described as martyrs? Shouldn't there be a policy that regulates the use of the term "martyr" equally in all religions?Vice regent 19:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, martyr is an exclusively religious term and is inherently biased. One can say "Mormon's consider Joseph Smith a martyr", but one should not talk about the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. Or of any of the various Catholic saints, Jesus, etc, for that matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.244.251.34 (talk) 16:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Could this page also include a section on time-related words and phrases to avoid, such as "recently", "this year", "last month", etc? Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 12:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
This word is very ambiguous and should be added to this list of words to avoid. If a sentence says "North Korea apparently rejected the proposals put forth by China." then it's very ambiguous. What is the purpose of using the word "apparently" in the sentence? If it is sourced by a RS then removing the "apparently" would make the sentence more concise, clear and less ambiguous. I can't think of any situations where the words "apparent" or "apparently" would be acceptable on Wikipedia. Wikidudeman (talk) 01:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I removed:
"Criticism of" type articles should generally start as sections of the main article and be spun off by agreement among the editors. Once spun off, "Criticism of ..." articles should contain rebuttals if available, and the original article should contain a summary of the "Criticism of ... " article.
It was removed from the end of Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Article title. It directly contradicts the following section, Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Article structure. It even encourages exactly what that following section warns against with the opening sentence. (Separating all the controversial aspects of a topic into a single section results in a very tortured form of writing, especially a back-and-forth dialogue between "proponents" and "opponents".) Vassyana 13:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
In recent weeks there has been a great deal of debate at Talk:Heaven's Gate and Talk:Jonestown over whether it is appropriate for Wikipedia to describe those groups as "cults." I had thought that the "Cult, sect" section of WP:WTA was quite clear that it is not. However, there seems to be a strongly held opinion that the intent of this guideline is only to prevent the word from being used in ambiguous cases, and that it's acceptable to use the word when a group is "indisputably" a cult, or that it's okay to do so once you have defined the sociological meaning of the word. My understanding was that the "technical sociological meaning" exception should only apply in a strict sociological context, e.g. describing sociology's understanding of what causes people to engage in cult behavior, and that it absolutely should not be used to describe a particular, contemporary, controversial religious group.
I'd like to hear feedback from WTA editors on their understanding of whether it should be acceptable to use "cult" for religious groups if the group is sufficiently extreme, or if the article first defines the sociological meaning of the word. Tim Pierce 13:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:WTA is a style guideline, not a content policy. It suggests but does not mandate. On occasions when "cult" is the most appropriate word, it should be used. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
These terms are used extensively, but they advance a point of view. If I say that a film sparked controversy in Placeland, then it implies that Placeland was like a tinderbox, just waiting to be riled up. Similarly, using 'triggered' to describe human affairs suggests a lack of conscious thought on the part of the triggerees. Provoked is the other way around, hinting that the reaction was justified. In most cases, these words can be replaced with 'caused'. Its OK to use them when their technical meaning is being used.
'Drew/attracted criticism' is another one. It implies that the subject of the criticism naturally attracts it because of their behaviour, like a sponge draws water. It can be replaced with 'has been criticised'. This is still passive voice, so even better would be rearranging the sentence to use the active voice.
I suggest adding these to the guideline. Comments?--Nydas(Talk) 11:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Compare the start of Guildford pub bombings with the start of September 11, 2001 attacks. When someone blows up Americans, its terrorism, when someone blows up Britons its merely a bombing. Al qaeda are "terrorists" whereas the Contras are "armed opponents".
Currently, the main issue is the article on the September 11, 2001 attacks. There are some very beligerant editors (I won't name names, lest I be accused of making personal attacks) insisting that the word terrorist be used in the narrative voice throughout the article, and backing up their claim with an irrelevant reference. Use of the word goes against both WP:TERRORIST and WP:NPOV#Let_the_facts_speak_for_themselves. These editors refuse to acknowledge these objections, and have even outright stated they will ignore them and continue to edit as they want. [18]
The article is dripping with subjectivity, and needs help desperately. Can anyone mediate? Damburger 20:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
9/11 was a terrorist act because fits in all the definitions. 1)it targets non-combatants; 2)was done for propaganda purposes and not for aquiring any tactical advantage; and 3)was a war crime without war; to quote just the three used definitions in academic circles. We can discuss if the folks were terrorists (?) but it is ludicrous to argue that was not terrorism. When something only fits in one or two definitions or when there is doubt we can use the "words to avoid" thing but in this case discussion is non-sense.--Igor21 21:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes. I make the laughable (for you) assumption that wikipedia is an encyclopedia so it uses the words properly and not deducing the meanings from the resemblance with other words. You can consult Schmidt, Horgan and/or Hoffman books and lectures for proper definitions of terrorism. To say that terrorism is "to cause terror" is like saying that a bicycle is "what have two cycles". Hiroshima can be a war crime but never can be terrorism. What is laughable (or frightening) for me is how people speaks about such important and dramatic issues with so much lack of rigor. If we do not use established and respected sources we will be forced to accept Freddy Kruger as terrorist.--Igor21 18:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
My opinion is that we must go to respected sources and in this sources there are three definitions of terrorism. When something fills the three there as it happens in 9/11 there is no legitimate doubt of which is the word to apply. I can say that for me a horse is an animal with stripes and keep saying that people who wants to call it zebra are POV. This is the grandeur and the misery of wikipedia.--Igor21 19:10, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I told you the name of three worldwide respected experts and they share the three definitions I said. Politicians and propagandists of wartime are not reliable sources and must not be taken in account in any sense.WP:TERRORIST is a just a way to avoid dicussions with fanatics but its substance is absurd. Words are for naming things and there are things whose only name is terrorism. To not use this name is to mix these things with others with nothing to do. Terrorism is a tactic that is used by some groups. To discuss if they have reasons to do it or not is POV, but to say that they do terrorism is just to call something by its name. Please, at least make the effort of reading these people before continuing the discussion. You will see light. --Igor21 20:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Damburger, give it up man. The word needs to be used. It's just absurd if it is not. Your edits all over Wikipedia speak to your opinions. Please let the word "terrorist" be used when it is appropriate, like the 9/11 article. Timneu22 22:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
No personal attacks, please. I'm not trying to "silence you." I simply see no logic whatsoever in calling events "terrorism" but saying the perpetrators aren't "terrorists." This is your argument, and it is just illogical. Timneu22 23:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm just trying to figure out what you're trying to prove by saying "terrorism without terrorists". What is your agenda? Timneu22 10:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
You are absolutely infuriating. This isn't what you said, but this is the point you've been trying to push. You say, Yes, it's terrorism. And you say No, we can't use the word "terrorist." Therefore, you're saying "terrorism without terrorists." Timneu22 12:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Whatever. You have several comments on several pages that say "this was terrorism" but you're pushing hard to remove terrorist from the articles. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm reading. I'm done with this discussion. Have fun pushing your anti-American theories all over the place. Your edits aren't very subtle. Timneu22 10:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
The reporting of some information makes it sound authorative (i.e. endorsed by an authority whose credibility is staked upon the information it lends its name to). But it does not necessarily make the information sound more factual. Kransky 12:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
This word seems to be used as a negative label to imply that the account of a former member of a religious group is inherently untrustworthy. AndroidCat 06:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Should we retitle Julian the Apostate? Jacob Haller 17:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure when "claim" went from "avoid" to "must be considered. I don't think it's important to always avoid it's usage, but I have to take issue with the current version. Right now, it says, "The American Heritage Dictionary notes this connotation: '['claim' means] to state to be true, especially when open to question.'" The terminology here is actually incorrect, as we are dealing with a denotation, not a connotation. The accompanying connotation is that it is sometimes used to mean not that the "claim" could be quesitoned, but rather that it is flat out wrong. In practice, this is the kind of usage I have seem most often for "claim". Much of the time, it is used to express or imply a point of view. Consequently, I believe that the current state of the guideline needs to be changed to reflect that it is possible to use claim inappropriately and that that usage should be avoided. Croctotheface 03:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Please see here for debate, thanks. Tazmaniacs 15:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Dictators are not dictators, pedophiles are not perverted, and those who use violence and fear to advance a political ideal are not terrorists!
I learned a lot today, thanks Wikipedia :) --137.92.97.114 04:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if this has been discussed before, but a footnote should be made on 'freedom fighters' in India (since disputes over this term has happened in several articles). The term can be used in articles, since it is a formal, recognized title by Indian government (is there should also be a separate article linked on this), there are 'freedom fighter' ID-cards, and 'freedom fighters' guesthouses (where retired freedom fighters stay for free), freedom fighter discounts on trains, etc.. --Soman 14:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I was bold and added this to the list of synonyms of "say" to avoid. Jacob Haller 19:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
The point that "claim is a loaded word" has been made repeatedly on debates concerning its usage [[e.g. on Talk:Intelligent design). This point is correct only to the extent that all words in the English language are loaded -- they all bring with them baggage in the form of past and alternative usage and other "colour". An example is "state"/"statement" which is heavily loaded with the term's legal usage (that of a statement, under oath, and thus under threat of perjury if false) carrying a colour of truthfulness. Should we likewise include "state"/"statement" in WP:WTA? Of course not. We should use words that are neutral in their contexts, rather than pretending, as the current formulation of WP:WTA does, that there are certain words that are universally neutral, and other words that are universally loaded.
If I may be permitted to outline a brief continuum of the contexts that are at issue (and to use a modicum of legal terminology, as I will be discussing evaluations of truthfulness throughout):
What I am suggesting is a more nuanced and contextual view of neutrality and "loaded words" than currently exists on WP:WTA. HrafnTalkStalk 06:06, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I've created an in-line Template:Ethnic slur which may prove useful, though other editors have removed every tag; I guess they like using ethnic slurs in their articles. Jacob Haller 20:38, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
In addition to freedom fighter could it please be made clear that this just means words in the freedom fighter vein? I've succesfully convinced a vandal that freedom fighter isn't appropriate in a article but now he says that since this page doesn't menion 'patriot' that makes it OK...--Josquius 12:57, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
"Patriot", as is usually its opposite "traitor", is itself loaded language and is likely to be used to describe someone posing as part of some ideological vanguard. One man's patriot is often another's traitor. The White (largely Tsarist) and Red (Bolshevik) sides both considered themselves saviors of Russia and the other side "traitors" to Russia. Those behind the Easter Rebellion are either patriots to Ireland or traitors to the preservation of British rule in Ireland. Or, were Claus von Stauffenberg and Sophie Scholl the definitive traitors for work against the Third Reich that they considered morally reprehensible -- or the definitive heroes of the German nation in a monstrous time?
You are right about the word patriot; even Vidkun Quisling seems to have thought himself the ultimate expression of Norwegian interests and so defined himself. It's almost impossible (and this may be an understatement) to use the word patriot in an NPOV setting unless it is on behalf of some specific cause. Patriot implies that an opposing side exists, and it is not the responsibility of Wikipedia to decide which side is right.--Paul from Michigan (talk) 19:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
This is a bad example, as the actual title of the article is disputed. The example should be removed. Yahel Guhan 06:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The page states: "Extremism and terrorism are pejorative terms." The word "terrorism" may indeed and often is used pejoratively. However, terrorism is a tactic of violence against civilians, either ordinary people or specifically targeted government officials. As a phenomenon, terrorism does exist whatever the connotations of the word. In English, this phenomenon is most commonly known as, yes, "terrorism"; for this reason, it is the best of way of naming articles. Unwieldy euphemisms, like "political violence" must not be used as susbstitutes. Beit Or 10:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I made a logically bulletproof argument that the use of the word 'terrorism' was subjective and pejorative over at the 9/11 article, but it was rejected by Americans who can't differentiate between their own opinions and subjective facts. I gave up when it became clear there simply weren't enough rational people editing the article to make it ever NPOV. So at the very least I'm trying to minimize the damage by making sure that pro-US groups like the Contras get equal treatment. Given the cultural bias here I'm not hopeful, but that has never stopped me before. Damburger 12:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Beit you wrote "However, terrorism is a tactic of violence against civilians, either ordinary people or specifically targeted government officials." Do you mean Civilians or non-combatants because civilians can be combatants under international law --for example mercenaries are civilians who take a direct part in hostilities as are many spies.
And if only it were that simple. Please read the stated aims of the PIRA Long War
{{cite book}}
|pages=
All in all most of these involve a judgement about what is or is not a terrorist incident and given the systemic bias of this project we are better off not using the term because it does convey a moral judgment; and if one party can successfully attach the label to a group, then it has indirectly persuaded others to adopt its moral viewpoint. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I think we should wait until we get a complaint from a terrorist before we make a final decision.--THE FOUNDERS INTENT TALK 13:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi Philip Baird Shearer, I am not going to answer all these enigmas you propose here because I have answered others and you never say anything afterwards. You retreat until the next dicussion starts and then you come back with your litany of enigmas again. IRA was a terrorist organization whose members had the phantasy of being an army. So they disguise their modus operandi in a way that sometimes can be seen as a kind of mokery military action. However they never engaged formally in a combat and they never respected laws of war. If you want to be so precize we can say that "IRA was a militia that combined pure terrorism with some pseudo-military actions like snipering and ambushing on-duty platoons". As I tell you always, the fact that border cases exist has never been a reason to ban an empiric category that has thousands of clear cases. How would you call RAF or Red Brigades activity?? --Igor21 (talk) 16:53, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi Philip Baird Shearer,
Three points :
1-To find uncomented answers to some puzzles proposed by you, go to Terrorism talk page.
2-RAF stands for Read Army Fraction [[19]] that was a terrorist german organization. If you read their ideology and modus operandi, you will see how dificult is to describe them without using the word "terrorism". In fact only their closer supporters do it.
3-The phrase "The PIRA began a process of transforming itself into a terrorist organisation based on a cell structure." proves beyond any doubt that there is a typology of actions and organizations that are characterized by this word. If IRA fits or not, it is another discussion.
--Igor21 (talk) 17:08, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I notice that the suggested wordings (insurgent, paramilitary, or partisan) sometimes fall short to describe the relevant organization in the articles. Should we also add "militant group" among the bunch, since it's one of the most commonly used wording in such cases? (Such as Al-Queda) Regards, Kerem Özcan (talk) 21:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I suggest adding words that imply some form of ranking, without substantiating this ranking, to the list of words to avoid. Words like "he was the most important...", "this is the most succesful...", etc. This is mostly because "importance" and "success" are immeasurable subjective terms: when is someone important, and someone else more important? When is someone succesful, and someone else more succesful? What defines success? When is a singer more succesful: with eighteen #1 hits in the US or with 19 #1 hits in the UK? When is a movie more succesful: when it has sold 400 million tickets, or when it has made 3 billion US$? These figures are all hypothetical, obviously, but they illustrate the point I'm trying to make. AecisBrievenbus 01:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
"Similarly, we should not refer to "Christian beliefs" and "Hindu myths"; this implies an obvious value judgement."
What's wrong with referring to them as "Christian beliefs"? Anyone know? I didn't want to change this, if there's something I'm missing here. -Rocket000 (talk) 14:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The last discussion of these words occurred over a year ago, so I thought it appropriate to create a new section rather than add to the old one. Concerns here are also somewhat related to various previous discussions of the word claim.
Occasionally a situation arises in which an allegation has not been or can not be definitively disproved, yet no evidence whatsoever has been produced in support of the charge. I find it inappropriate in such cases to use the words deny or denial as a response to these kinds of allegations, because they imply guilt or suggest false balance. Some examples:
In case #1, only Mr. Public knows what his beliefs are, and any claim to the contrary is mind-reading. In case #2, Ms. Doe is advancing a wild conspiracy theory. Both allegations may be important to include in their respective articles, so to counter them, articles frequently just include statements of denial like those above, which respectively imply that Public probably does believe in leprechauns, and that the CIA and Red Cross may very well be using a popular television show for mind control — but they've so far been able to cover up the "truth." Another common way to counter is to simply quote a response by the target of the accusation, which still tells readers nothing at all about the likelihood of truthfulness. Hopefully there are better ways to describe a complete lack of evidence for a charge, I just wish I knew what they were. It's usually very hard to find an attributable source who says evidence does not exist. It might also be difficult to find an RS who says simply that the charges are widely regarded to be crackpot theories or baseless attacks, because they may all assume everyone already knows this. Yet, for example, if Mr. Public is a candidate for political office, his opponents, including some Wikipedia editors, may have a vested interest in repeating the charges and insisting upon their merit, and a great many people may choose to believe them. That's all fine and well, of course, except when it leads to Wikipedia articles that fail to tell things as they are. - Tobogganoggin talk 23:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)