(moved from here)
Checking the three content-guiding policy pages, I realized that some of what I've said above is not in line with the text. Yet I feel that what I'm saying is entirely consistent with Wikipedia practice: we can change these policies using the consensus process, but we cannot change the three "principles" themselves. These three policies have changed a lot over time, demonstrating that the consensus process does "supersede" these policies. Jimbo has declared the NPOV principle non-negotiable, but not the policy text. He summarized the basic points of NOR. Both the Verifiability and NOR policies have been declared non-negotiable by editors, apparently based on consensus. In short, Aquirata has a point when arguing that policies being both subject to the consensus process and non-negotiable constitute a contradictio in terminis. So I think there is some repair work that needs to be done here. Would it be feasible to update the policy language to reflect that Wikipedia has three non-negotiable principles that are explained on their respective policy pages (which are negotiable)?
More concretely, this would mean some indiviidual changes and one that would apply to all three policies, along the following lines: "The three policies are also non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus." would become: "The three content-guiding policies are based on non-negotiable principles that cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus. These policies override all other policies and guidelines, which must be kept consistent with them."
Or am I missing something here? AvB ÷ talk 14:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I've just found out what some of you already know: my proposal does not change longstanding policy language. Jimbo's quote was inserted in in 2003, but the text I'm more or less disputing is a relatively recent addition to these three policies. In fact it hasn't even been added to one of them. As far as I can see without investing too much of my time, it went through with very little opposition. This probably means that its spirit was in line with consensus and its text expected to work. I think its intention is OK, but we now have some new information indicating that the text is problematic. We have seen that it may lead to confusion between policy (spirit) and policy (text). This confusion has now been used in an attempt to change bedrock policy principles. In the light of this experience, seeing that the text leads to misunderstandings and lots of time going to waste on explanations here (and I assume also to more newbie edit warring in article space), I'll come up with a new proposal.
When working on a replacement text I realized that the current text has the advantage of declaring the three policies completely non-negotiable when it comes to editing in article space, while they are partly ("textually") negotiable in project space. We don't want to lose that distinction. Nothing is as easy as it seems at first sight. I reached consensus with myself on a compromise. AvB ÷ talk 13:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
(See rationale in previous talk page section)
I propose that we change paragraph #2 of the lead section to:
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is one of Wikipedia's three content-guiding policy pages. The other two are Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Because the three policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one other, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace (article space), taking precedence over any other guidelines as well as over editors' consensus.
These policies are non-negotiable and their policy pages may only be edited to better reflect practical explanation and application of each policy's principles.
Thanks. AvB ÷ talk 13:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I've implemented a (hopefully improved) version of this proposal. AvB ÷ talk 05:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm moving the latest version of this proposal here for further discussion since it's being disputed by Francis and was reverted as not having reached consensus (see diff of my edits):
Francis is also disputing this edit, see below [1]. AvB ÷ talk 12:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Updating proposal to reflect criticism by Francis (I thought I had staged my edits to avoid this):
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is one of Wikipedia's three content-guiding policy pages. The other two are Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in article space, taking precedence over any other guidelines as well as over editors' consensus. Because the three policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. The three policies are also non-negotiable and their policy pages may only be edited to better reflect their practical explanation and application.
AvB ÷ talk 09:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be support from Jossi[2] and FeloniousMonk[3] for the last sentence of the first proposal amended by a WP:Bold edit [4] I made separate from this discussion:
Francis remained opposed to this sentence and reverted Jossi's addition with the edit summary "Remove declaration about non-negotiability of other policies/principles (not needed here). The non-negotiability of NPOV is defined elsewhere on this page, shouldn't be defined differently in 2nd para"
I think this calls for some attention to this proposal section. Recap:
Current version:
Support/opposition:
The most important aspects discussed in detail above are (summarizing from memory, please correct any mistakes):
I would really appreciate some more input from experienced editors here. I have no problem to see my edits reverted, but I think this is a well-reasoned and useful proposal that should be discussed and implemented as is or after improvement. The proposal has received support from five editors but no opposition on the talk page in the six days it has been sitting here. One editor opposes it, reverting all related edits and commenting elsewhere on this talk page. Two additional editors support part of the proposal, re-inserting a reverted sentence.
AvB ÷ talk 09:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
There are some who incorrectly consider a "point of view" to be (a) bad (b) the opposite of "Neutral point of view". I wonder whether it worth modifying the first sentence to clarify this:
--Iantresman 18:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like to know whether a consensus between editors can ever carve entire policies (text and/or principles) in stone, in effect forbidding ANY later consensus changes that are more than explanatory or additional. Prohibiting later consensus is not allowed in article space. But by what authority (other than that of Jimbo et al.) can it be done to policies in project space? And if the consensus process has the "authority" to declare elements of policy sacrosanct, shouldn't it at least make explicit which elements are so canonized? (Instead of some wholesale elevation of three entire policies, or at least the principles presented by the language at that point.) And if wholesale canonization is allowed, shouldn't at least the timestamp and the version be mentioned in the canonizing edit? If there is no time-stamp, doesn't the language carve in stone all subsequent changes to these three policies as soon as they have reached consensus (a bizarre consequence of recursion without base case)?
Please note that this is not an attempt to change or delete widely accepted Wikipedia principles. See also this discussion. I think that such principles, if they need more protection than the consensus process has to offer, have to be identified and discusssed and some protection has to be implemented before we revert or rewrite "these policies are (also) non-negotiable". I'm simply trying to determine whether a consensus that inserts this or similar language has the "authority" to do so. It looks too much like Papal infallibility to me. Which is not something to be attempted without divine guidance.
(I'll probably post an adapted version of the question to the mailing list.)
AvB ÷ talk 09:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Just a note that Jimbo is referring to the neutral point of view principle, not the NPOV policy, when stating that "NPOV is non-negotiable". The 2006 quote at the top of the article is in the context of leeway for different language wikis. FWIW, the German language Wikipedia recognizes four "immutable fundamental principles", referring to them as such at the top of its NPOV policy page (see Wikipedia:Five_pillars). NPOV is one of them. Nowhere does it say that policies are immutable, as far as I know. AvB ÷ talk 10:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I've updated the three articles, limiting "non-negotiable" to the "fundamental principles" of each policy. Rationale:
IMHO Wikipedia practices and the related policy language are sufficiently protected by the consensus process and, where necessary, by Jimbo et al. This application of the term "non-negotiable" offers an unnecessary level of protection in project space. It has already led to misunderstandings. It also has the potential of stifling consensus-based changes. (Admittedly, I've seen it used in this context only once, regarding a proposal that was a case of WP:SNOW anyway.) AvB ÷ talk 05:37, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Whatever way you turn it, the *policy* is non-negotiable. That's what the page said, and there's no reason to change that. Your addition is redundant & confusing.
Well, a basic problem is that too many people tried to *negotiate* the content of the policy page. Better keep it clear: there's no such procedure as changing wikipedia's NPOV policy by negotiation. As said, there's no separation between the NPOV policy and the way it is formulated on the NPOV policy page, or, if there would be, that separation would be different per person, so that's not a workable distinction. It's the policy that's non-negotiable. If that would be limited to the "principle", you'd give way to attempts to change the content of the policy under the cloak of "I'm not changing the principle". Not workable. --Francis Schonken 09:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm moving my bold edit here since it's being disputed and has not reached consensus:
Wikipedia has done without an officially non-negotiable policy for five years. All it had was an officially non-negotiable principle. Three months ago a tiny consensus with very little discussion made three policies officially non-negotiable. According to Francis, this was hoped to help reign in reform attempts not supported by the wider community. I don't think we have seen any successes so far. I do think we're just beginning to see the disadvantages of this new language. And it's probably radically new - I've participated here for only six months, so I don't know this for a fact, but somehow I don't see a community here that is conservative to the extent that it wants to curb its own consensus processes and apparently no longer wants its policies to be consensus-based. "Sorry, move on now, this consensus-based policy is non-negotiable" where all we used to have was "this principle is non-negotiable". It looks like painting oneself into a corner to me. I think this really needs input from the wider community.
However, I think I'd better concentrate on another dispute regarding these edits, see above [6]. I'd like to postpone the discussion on this meta-question (perhaps indefinitely). As I've argued before, I do not think it's in the cards to address the principles/wording dichotomy at this point, although I do think testing the waters on this question can be informative and in the end I expect the meaning of what I'm saying to slowly dawn on others. This is towards formulating policies in a way that does not invite unwanted reforms like at least the current WP:NPOV does. I actually believe there are a number of items we must declare non-negotiable. I just happen to think the current text overshoots this aim by a wide margin. AvB ÷ talk 13:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
FYI, I posted this on the WP:V and WP:NOR talk pages. Please add your view there if you don't agree. AvB ÷ talk 14:45, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of whether these changes are accepted, it would be good, I think, to list our fundamental principles, perhaps along the lines of the German Wikipedia which has adapted its version of Wikipedia:Five pillars to that end. See the German language NPOV policy page and the German language central/fundamental principles. Any thoughts? Thanks. AvB ÷ talk 06:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia, like all wikimedia projects, has 5 principles that are practically non negotiable. These are the m:Foundation issues.
Kim Bruning 14:31, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Concerning topics such as a particular religious group...
I believe that the NPOV policy should clearly state that the primary subject matter of a topics title should first be represented factually and accurately as the main body of the topic. Outside or opposing POV's should not preclude or control a topics theme!
75.8.41.193 22:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The way policy stands now, either editors feel they have to make a muddy mix of various views in a topic or they misuse policy to willfully preculude the proper represenation of the subject.
There is a loophole in NPOV policy.
There needs to be a priority statement included in the NPOV.
1, First of all NPOV should mean that a subject or people that a topic (title) represents are fairly and accurately represented in their beliefs and practices etc. This should be the main focalpoint and body of an article.
2. Outside or opposing POV's should not preclude or replace what or who the topic represents.
Summary: Outside or opposing views should be treated generally as secondary to the actual subjects POV.
75.8.41.193 23:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Facts precede opinions and Wikipedia:Define and describe. Bensaccount
Please help improve/implement/demolish this 6-day-old proposal. It could really use some more input. AvB ÷ talk 09:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
"The three policies are also non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus." This is what it said, but is being removed. 204.56.7.1 16:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
What is the problem with having statement such as "The fundamental principles of the three policies are non-negotiable and their policy pages may only be edited to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles."
I believe that statement to be accurate. Rather than editwarring, please discuss. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
As far as I can see these are relevant parts of User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles (important note: on this talk page of the NPOV policy I'm not discussing WP:V, nor WP:NOR - Jimbo's Statement of principles page has probably less bearing on these other two policies that, as far as I know, only got prominence some time after Jimbo wrote his original Statement of principles):
Returning to the proposed text ("The fundamental principles of the three policies are non-negotiable and their policy pages may only be edited to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles."):
The article states
There is an implicit assumption in this that the academic/educated/journalistic groups in society are in fact NPOV, or otherwise are able to reach some standard of NPOV or objectivity or what-have-you. This, in and of itself, is a particular bias, a particular point of view. The process of education itself, particularly as understood in the Western sense, works out of and attempts to form worldviews and ways of thinking. The discourses of the educated class (of which I am a part, by the way) are no less laiden with specific POVs than are the discourses of ethnically or religiously specific groupings. Furthermore, unfortunate examples in history are evident where the academic/encyclopedic/journalistic sources of society were in fact "wrong": for instance, eugenics was an academically supported field for much of the early 20th century, and the educated classes in Europe and America were no less racist through the 17th, 18th, and into the 19th century than were slaveholders themselves.
Anyway, I'm not sure there really is a solution to this dilemma. But I wish to close with a poignant quote from Bishop Desmond Tutu: "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.” May those with ears, hear...
Emerymat 00:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
In an ongoing dispute between myself and User:Iantresman over the subjects of redshift, redshift quantization and other related subjects, Ian has made this rather cogent point distilling the essence of the conflict:
I agree with everything except the idea that this represents a "double standard". In my mind, there are two major points to consider when editting articles that relate to "alternative" vs. "mainstream" theories: 1) how is the subject normally portrayed in, say, other encyclopedias, texts, resources, or articles and 2) who are the major proponents of the idea (as per undue weight, for example).
In this particular case, I included a sentence in the article on redshift quantization regarding the major proponents of the idea [9]. The referenced citations were to websites and books written by the proponents regarding their belief that redshift quantizations represent a major stumbling block for the Big Bang. I get the impression that this association with creationists and geocentrists made Ian uncomfortable because he retaliated almost immediately with this edit: [10] which aside from looking like a gaming of the system was meant to I think "expose" the double standard at work.
Indeed, I do think including the sentence in the first instance was justifiable while the inclusion on the part of Ian was unjustifiable. My rationale? Redshift is a mainstream scientific concept that deserves explication as such primarily because the vast majority of resources on the matter discuss it as the mainstream describe it. To acheive NPOV, we have a sentence in the article which mentions that there are those who disagree with using redshift-distance relations as evidence for the Big Bang. That's the extent to which we accomodate "alternative" viewpoints in the article. This is in proportion to the notability of these proponents since the vast majority of people who inquire about cosmology accept the Big Bang model as a matter of course. Redshift quantization on the other hand is a topic which is of dubious mainstream distinction (I think nearly every peer-reviewed article ever written on the subject is referenced in the article here at Wikipedia), but is discussed quite a bit in the context of opponents to the Big Bang. As such, it deserves contextualization as this.
So, I have decided to open this question up to the watchers of this page: is there a double-standard at work here or is this a justifiable practice I have just outlined?
--ScienceApologist 14:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
As it is, there isn't any mention of redshift quantization at all in redshift. While Ian's sentence added to redshift was inappropriate in tone (particularly the "however") and probably too detailed, surely proportional representation of the minority view means more than zero mention in the main article. By the way, which section is the critics sentence in? I don't see it.--ragesoss 23:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
--Iantresman 00:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
That doesn't mean it shouldn't be. Created kinds is a significant enough concept to warrant mention in species. Wikipedia presents information from a neutral point of view, not a scientific point of view. Articles on scientific concepts, of course, present primarily the view of scientists, and make clear that significant non-scientific or discredited views are opposed by most or all scientists, but I would say leaving created kinds out of species is badly off the mark for what a WP article should be.--ragesoss 01:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
A comment on Ian's suggestion that "surely proportional representation of the minority view means more than zero mention in the main article" and his opinion that "Undue weight was never designed to exclude views, only to ensure that such views did not take up too much of an article.": Zero is sometimes exactly how much mention a subject warrants by Undue Weight. An extremal example that demonstrates this is that Time Cube gets exactly zero mention in Time, and I don't think anyone except Gene Ray would see this exclusion as an inappropriate application of Undue Weight. Obviously, less extreme examples will warrant inclusion and some will warrant exclusion, but the view that Undue Weight does not and should not ever exclude a subject from a larger article very obviously leads to an absurdity (Time Cube being significant enough to be in Time) and so is clearly wrong. — Saxifrage ✎ 04:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
ragesoss's commentary on undue weight has distilled exactly the problem with what should be its appropriate use. ragesoss believes undue weight is exclusionary under the criteria: "Would a reader of article A want to know about related marginal idea X?". Apparently that is all that is required for him to understand why time cube is excluded from time, but it is clear to him that redshift quantization shouldn't be excluded from redshift nor should created kinds be excluded from species. If this is the case, then we must be leaving all of our decisions about how to apply undue weight fairly up to consensus, because I don't see any objective criteria for how he can claim that a reader doesn't want to know about time cube but does want to know about created kinds or redshift quantization. Note the judgemental language ragesoss uses to describe his rationale for excluding time cube. Is it an NPOV-sentiment to declare time cube to be just an "internet meme" (his own POV demarcation of the idea -- not something Gene Ray would agree with) that "no scientist takes seriously" (you have a cite for that? said the devil's advocate). Of course, this is left to his judgement of the matter and I'm pleased that ragesoss isn't so mealy-mouthed as to claim that undue weight cannot ever completely exclude mention of an article. But the issue is that all we have to go on is consensus. My "common sense" tells me for a variety of reasons that redshift quantization does not belong on the redshift page. Are you calling my "common sense" wrong, ragesoss? Or are you just appealing this judgement to the good will of the community? --ScienceApologist 13:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I think other editors here should examine my recent mediation against ScienceApologist and Iantresman discussing their exasperating talk-page tactics before continuing this discussion in this forum. Flying Jazz 17:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Here are the problems I see with Undue weight.
How can anonymous, non-specialist editors, with their own biases and conflicts of interest, make objective decisions on such views? --Iantresman 15:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Not this nonsense yet once again. Give it a rest. This continual resurrection of this topic by this small contingent of a particular POV is disruptive and needs to stop. Now. FeloniousMonk 18:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
JA: I don't know what the issue is here. I was only trying to bring that paragraph into verbatim conformity across all three content, er, -regulating pages. One page had "content-guiding", which is clearly too weak, and leads to confusion with guidelines. It is very essential for all sorts of reasons to draw a firm line between policies and guidelines. Can anybody explain to me what they have in mind here? Jon Awbrey 21:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I've inlcuded maps in the list of things that need to be NPOVd. Often disputed regions are covered showing only one country's point of view, and to plug this loophole, I've included in policy. =Nichalp «Talk»= 03:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I need further clarifications here: Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Han Civilisation Delist. =Nichalp «Talk»= 06:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
What is to be done for articles on parodies or satires which fail to label themselves as such in a way that can be linked or sourced? Over at Talk:Flying Spaghetti Monster, some editors argue that the organization, which fails to identify itself anywhere on its website as a "parody" or "satire", should therefore be treated by Wikipedia as if it were intended to be a religion. I know I'm not alone in finding this farcical; there's such a thing as taking things too literally. FSM is widely understood to be a satire intended to poke fun at the reasoning behind so-called Intelligent Design theory. There are plenty of websites that refer to it as such, but those making this assertion claim that the "beliefs" of the "believers" must be given precedence. For Wikipedia to misportray FSM as an actual religion, rather than a satire, would fundamentally cripple the article's ability to accurately describe the goal and effects of this satire.
It would be as if someone went to the article on Jonathan Swift and accused him of actually intending people to follow his satirical advice and eat Irish children. As can be seen at Jonathan Swift and A Modest Proposal, the editors there are fortunately well-equipped with common sense and correctly identify the work as satire. Likewise, the article on Candide does not shy from noting the widely-understood fact that Voltaire's putting glib optimism in the mouth of Dr. Pangloss was a deliberate satire. In fact, "all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds" is almost exactly the opposite of Voltaire's true beliefs, and it would be the greatest possible misrepresentation of Voltaire if an editor were to do to his article what is being proposed for FSM.
I reread WP:NPOV but could find no reference to how to treat works of satire and parody. Is there a policy on the topic, or at least a set of guidelines? Is there a WP:UCS ("Use Common Sense"), even? Because it's hard to get anything done on Flying Spaghetti Monster amid people who are either too policy-bound or too humorless to recognize a parody when they see one. Is this a case for IAR? Kasreyn 16:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The reason you didn't get an answer here (yet) is probably partially due to the fact that the problem you present is rather handled by wikipedia:verifiability and wikipedia:reliable sources.
As can be seen from these policies and guidelines, in general self-published primary sources are held in lower esteem as reference source, than secondary sources under editorial control. So, quote the most reliable secondary sources you can find regarding the "parody/satire" POV, note down in the FSM article that the "religion" POV basicly can be reduced to self-declarations of the initiator of the website.
Maybe also have a look at Wikipedia:Notability (web)#Criteria for web content, if you can't find "multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself" nor any proof of the other suggested criteria, maybe the FSM doesn't even qualify as a viable topic for a separate wikipedia article (see also: WP:NOT). --Francis Schonken 11:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
No, I said:
This last sentence in Undue Weight, does not appear to be relevant to Undue Weight, but is part of "verifiability" and "original research"?--Iantresman 20:53, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Although it we clarly already have a policy regarding text moves, two Wikipedians have teamed up to hide any clarification or amplification of this. I can only assume it's because they want to censore this policy, because they personally oppose it.
Francis claimed my link to Wikipedia:Text move is not part of "policy" - on what grounds I don't know, maybe because I placed the {{proposed}} template at the head of the linked page.
But I have seen references to "text moves" on 2 or 3 other pages, and I've noticed that FM and his clique oppose this policy. They feel justified in reverting any changes they disagree with (often with the terse comment that I must discuss all my changes first), while reserving the right to make any changes they want without any discussion at all, before or afterwards. --Uncle Ed 19:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I know the NPOV policy is meant to cover situations in which an editor edits sourced facts into an article but, because of selection of which facts to present from said source, the facts presented a slanted view of its subject. I think this is covered under the general "don't be biased" mantra of NPOV, and is mentioned secifically under the "Fairness and sympathetic tone" section of the article: "Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization. . . ." As a more concrete example of what I'm talking about: an editor edits the following, sourced blurb into Ted Kennedy's article, "Kennedy supports a tax on imported rubber and justifies the tax by stating 'rubber imports are not a practical response to current tire prices'[reference]". The editor leavs the blurb at that, failing to note that the source goes on to say that Kennedy's true motivation/justification for supporting the tax is because he believes domestic rubber production is sufficient and expanding. This blurb obviously violates the portions of this policy that I've mentioned above, as it makes Kennedy out to have no concrete justification for his support of the tax through selection of which facts to present. My point for posting here is to ask two questions: (1) is this type of fact-selection NPOV violation mentioned anywhere else in the policy other than one sentence in the Fairness and sympathetic tone section and (2) if not, shouldn't there be a more expansive subsection on fact-selection bias here? I understand that this problem is somewhat related to undue weight (in that both deal with fact-selection bias), but undue weight doesn't cover a situation similar to what I've posited above. - Jersyko·talk 02:51, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Could someone nautral to WoW please check out that article. I do not want to add a VfD because the article itself has potential. I just feel it's a pile of POV as it stands right now. Any guidance as to what could be done would also be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Havok (T/C/c) 20:45, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
A handful of editors and I are in conflict with a single admin on a particular subject, and I believe that the problem comes down to different interpretations of what constitutes "undue weight". I've read through the main NPOV page, and digested as much of this page as I can (it's a LOT!), but haven't seen anything which really addresses my issue. If I've overlooked it, I apologize, and would thank somebody for pointing me in the right direction; otherwise, I would like to know what the community thinks of the following situation. In a nutshell -- the rules are clear that, when a vocal minority is in conflict with a substantial majority, the article must be weighted towards the latter -- ie, creationists and flat-earthers are relegated to footnotes on pages about evolution and geomorphology. Rightly so. But how does one weight an article when a subject is relatively obscure and the "majority view" of a subject is, well, ignorance? The admin insists that proper NPOV weighting means that the article should be small and vaguely skeptical; I disagree -- I believe it does not need to be either small or weighted. But I would appreciate some additional opinions.
For those who are interested, please allow me to give some background on the subject,
Just to give some background, the conflict concerns an experimental transit technology called "Personal Rapid Transit" (PRT). PRT has been theorized and experimented with since the 1960s, with several billion dollars having been collectively spent on it over the years, and several full-scale prototypes built, tested, certified by various regulatory agencies, and so forth -- but for a variety of reasons, no PRT system has ever been deployed publicly. Recently, there has been a resurgence of interest in PRT, and a small system has finally been purchased for public installation at London Heathrow Airport in 2008 (see ULTra (PRT)). There are also funds allocated for a small system in Dubai, and in two places in Sweden. Worldwide, there is perhaps $50 - $100 million being spent annually on R&D for this technology.
As far as the vast community of transportation engineers and scientists go, PRT is largely unknown. I'd guess that the percentage who have even heard of it is somewhere in the vicinity of 2%, and most of those could barely define what it is, much less give a cogent support or refutation of its premises. Commercially, when compared to planes, trains, and automobiles, $50 - $100 million annually is utterly insignificant.
However, there is a small number of engineers, probably numbered in the very low thousands worldwide, who are either involved with PRT ventures or are just very enthusiastic about the technology (although there is a considerably larger group of non-credentialed supporters who are intrigued by or supportive of the concept). These people have produced a voluminous body of work documenting the results of various prototype trials, hashing out design strategies, and generally extolling its virtues. As implied above, the rest of the transit world has more or less ignored this -- they've got enough else to think about.
There is another, even smaller number of engineers and activists who are aware of PRT and actively critical of it. My guess is that there would be, at most, about a hundred of these individuals worldwide. They have produced a body of work criticizing the PRT concept. This body of work is considerably smaller and less detailed than the body of work of the supporters, but both represent tiny niches within the field as a whole.
So, this brings us to the heart of the matter. The admin in question asserts that skepticism is the "majority view". I strongly contest this assertion: apathy is, unquestionably, the "majority view" among transit professionals. At any rate, the admin feels that the article (and associated articles) should consequently be short and very basic, if indeed they should exist at all, and that above all else they must emphasize that PRT does not actually exist (he repeatedly refers to it as "fictional") -- and he routinely mass-deletes content, adds redundant "in theory" and "according to proponents" tags to virtually every sentence, and threatens to lock down articles when anybody objects to his behavior.
I, of course, do object (but I'm not an admin, so what does that matter?). I believe that apathy is not a legitimate "majority view", and that it is fully within Wikipedia's purview to do a nice and fairly comprehensive article about highly niche topics such as PRT. [Solar Sail]s and [Space Elevator]s and have far more extensive articles than [Personal Rapid Transit], for example, despite the fact that the majority of aerospace engineers have no interest in those topics, a minority are actively highly skeptical about them, and those things are in any case far more "fictional" than PRT.
My belief is that there is no need for the issue of "undue weight" to even enter into an article like this. I believe it should be possible in this case to summarize the works of PRT designers (being very careful to attribute all non-empirical claims -- basically anything concerning PRT that wasn't physically gleaned from a prototype), and also summarize the works of the PRT critics. I believe that there is no intrinsic POV problem with summarizing both camps in as much detail as their literature provides; the hostile admin, however, believes that going into such detail would be intrinsically POV, given that PRT is "irrelevant" and "fictional". Edit wars thus ensue.
Am I wrong? Is he wrong? Please help! If anyone would like more background on this issue, I urge you to check out the talk pages for Personal Rapid Transit, ULTra (PRT), and UniModal. I look forward to your responses and thank you for your time! Skybum 01:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I want to notify that I placed the Orania page under the npov tag. Reasons being the article erroneously assumes the opposing position and ignores the central issue. Example, 2nd paragraph. There is no issue of Apartheid being continued in Orania in the form of exploitation of black labor. The issue is clearly one of Apartheid used to segregate resources and land. Nothing more. So the article violates the neutral point of view in the political bias and misrepresentation of other viewpoints. --Zaphnathpaaneah 06:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
This seems to have been missed. I wish to remove, or move the following sentence from the Undue weight section:
This last sentence in Undue Weight, does not appear to be relevant to Undue Weight, but is part of "verifiability" and "original research"? --Iantresman 12:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is one of Wikipedia's three content policies. The other two are Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. Because the three policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another [...]