The use of nested criticisms is strongly discouraged under the NPOV policy. Nested criticisms often occur when two editors who support different viewpoints about an article's subject. When one editor adds a source criticizing the article's subject, the other adds a criticism of the critic. This pattern often continues with responses adding "critics of critics" and "critics of critics of critics" and so forth. Often criticisms of the critics stray substantially from the original article's topic. They can make the article difficult to read and create a source of bias.
When a criticism is/is not appropriate - As a rule of thumb, direct criticisms of an article's subject should be sourced and placed in a designated section. Additional criticisms of these critics may be included when they were made by:
A criticism of a critic that has no immediate relevance to the article's subject or the criticism is not appropriate in most cases. (Example: Reporter John Doe criticized Congressman Smith for allegedly taking money from the Tobacco lobby[SOURCE], but Doe is a "personal smear artist and a scoundrel" according to the Family Values PAC[SOURCE])
Solutions - Nested criticisms are inappropriate when the material is off-topic to the original criticism or the article's subject, even if they are sourced. This does not necessarily mean they should be excluded from Wikipedia though. Instead of nesting off-topic criticisms of critics into existing articles, add them into the appropriate section of the Wikipedia article about the critic and wiki-link to that article. This keeps articles on topic and reduces the problems of bias and edit warring caused by nested criticisms.
Suggestions, changes, comments? Please propose below. Rangerdude 23:00, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Then let's put a provision in there barring ad hominem attacks from nested criticisms. Rangerdude 20:33, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
In some cases, there is a natural way out of this provision by arguing that we cannot separate the original subject of the article, say some special theory, from the proponents of the theory. One can argue that the topic of the article should naturally include the proponents of the theory and anything that can be said about these proponents as is the case in ad hominem attacks. For example, is the article about creationism only about creationism per se or does it include the proponents of creationism as well, their religious motivation, etc? In cases like that, should we barre ad hominen attacks at the first level. If we don't, is it then fair to barre it at the second level, which involves the proponents of evolutionism? --Lumiere 07:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
A discussion on the reformulation of the NPOV policy is taking place here: Wikipedia:Policypedia/NPOV. FeloniousMonk 17:25, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Talk:Redshift is currently involved in a Point of View discussion, whose scientific nature may interest some people. I am one of the two editors involved. The argument centres around whether the "astronomical" use of the word redshift, is the only acceptable definition of redshift, or whether other scientists use the word in an acceptable way in their fields. --Iantresman 17:45, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Does a neutral point of view require an automatic reduction in labeling?
For argument's sake, let's say we have Smith, a confessed and convicted murderer who killed Jones. There are eyewitnesses to the murder. There is a videotape of the murder and DNA evidence implicating Smith. There simply are no disputed facts.
Does being neutral in the Smith article require a reduction in the label from murderer to felon or lawbreaker?
Hypothetically, a scholar, Bob, made in a blog or magazine article an argument to this reduction along these lines: definitions of murder vary in place and time, many murderers go unpunished, murderer is perjorative, etc. so Bob concludes Smith must be labeled a felon and not a murderer.
What weight, if any, can be given to such arguments as Bob's made by those with no or very remote involvement in the actual case? patsw 21:48, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Which one is more accurate in describing the neutral point of view policy?
One of the anti-Irving academic wizards mentioned that Irving is not to be believed because how could he(Irving) say that Hitler did not know about the gas chambers,etc by 1945/44. Well my understanding is that neither FDR,Churchill, Stalin,Red Cross( it seems everyone with any indepth knowledge of the camps/decoded messages ) wouldn't?/didn't/refused? to put their name to a book/memoir that talked about the the holocaust. In your memoirs I suppose you don't want to eventually be made out to be a liar. I deduce that there are memos. etc in some archives putting the kibosh to the whole murdering Germans/holocaust story yet to be found by an Irving-type historian. By the way, because you are an "academic historian" or a "professional historian"etc doesn't mean you have the courage to investigate a controversial issue( as a matter of fact you have a lot to lose - few controversial topics are safe for an academic to broach, at least before he is tenured and of course tenured professionals have been sternly weeded to remove the troublemakers)or in many cases the IQ or drive( anyone who has the passivity ( and many good characteristics also I admit) to set through some 8 or more years of college classes to get a PHD may not have the fire to go after a really big lie) ( of course confirming a big truth can get you lots of money - and it's a lot easier job and review). 159.105.80.60 15:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Following discussion above, with several users, I've posted up a draft policy for discussion on Information suppression. previously this was discussed under the title "POV suppression".
In other policy areas, major and well-defined sub-policies are often covered in more depth on their own pages despite being contained within an umbrella policy. (For example, WP:NPA can be viewed as a sub-policy enlarging on an aspect of WP:CIVILITY.)
Draft policy for discussion is at Wikipedia:Information suppression -- please help improve it, or leave an opinion and contribution on the talk page.
FT2 19:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
This policy may be well-intended, but it puts the heavy hand of officialdom on each editors article. The articles end up reading more like the lifeless prose of a EULA. - Xed 13:44, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I never heard of Wooden tongue syndrome, maybe you want to write an article on that? I don't understand what you mean as the NPOV policy often implies inclusion of a range of very interesting POV's. Harald88 16:36, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
By "wooden tongue syndrome" I mean the blandness in style which afflicts some articles. They're almost written mechanically, because of the NPOV and other rules. "Some say this, but others say this, yet others say this etc". Very little depth. Multiple viewpoints, but no context. Compare the 1911 encyclopedia articles [1], which are concise, eloquent and sometimes sparkling. - Xed 17:30, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Whats the earliest formulation of NPOV? I found this [[2]] but I don't know how old it is. I tend to prefer it to the current formulation of NPOV. Bensaccount 21:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Ok that is an opinion
But from my POV it seems that there are many subjects that can not be adequately described without using POV language to one degree or another. There things out there that require a POV to describe them in part or in whole. More than one side of a POV must however be required in addition to the “NPOV” description where possible for full understanding in those cases.
If a zPOV is required to describe subject “题”, there will also be a parallel yPOV to counter that description in addition the NPOV. Many descriptions are going to be colored somewhat by human attitude and behaviour to one degree or another.
I have seen what could be could content removed because it was removed due to it’s POV’ness. What I would have believe (there’s a POV!) maybe it should have been moved to a sub section and paired with it’s counter POV(s).
Is NPOV a POV in itself? I can’t tell, sometimes it seems so. Sometimes it seems not.
It was once said that “Understanding is a three edged sword;” I see some articles that require dueling POV’s to describe a topic and give it understanding; however it is critical to delineate and identify the POV’ness of the descriptions in the two or more sides in any inclusive article.
There is a slippery slope to this POV in that it may allow for the inclusion of kooks and shills, therefore it must be used with care.
There are cases in which NPOV makes the article incomprehendible as the article may require a POV to describe it. A previous writer wrote that many articles end up reading like an EULA and I tend to agree.
Neutrality in itself is a point of view. A table has more then the edge to look at. It has a top and a bottom, the table has a front and a back. The light shining on the table through the window may make its color change from light to dark depending on the aspect angle in which you gaze upon it’s surface. Total NPOC risks loosing nuances needed to garner to a fuller understanding.
Is NPOV important? Yes; I believe so. Is POV also important? Yes, I believe so too. Just so long as the slant of an article is clear, sectionalized and is proven. Bdelisle 02:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)