Jimbo,
I'll make this quick. It says here that "all contributions made to the Wikimedia Foundation are tax deductible". Is that only in terms of money? I ask because there are good, hard working people who spend the equivalent of a 40 hour work-week editing and maintaining Wikipedia alone. Doesn't that kind of contribution, that kind of dedication, count as "tax deductible" under the auspices of Wikimedia?
I'm sure this will be deleted off your talk page in a matter of minutes, but I had to ask if only in the interests of those editors who have made Wikipedia into what it is today. Thank you for your time sir. 68.71.52.18 (talk) 00:19, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
In the U.S., you cannot deduct the value of your time, but you can deduct out of pocket expenses. For example, if you pay by the minute (instead of a flat monthly rate) for Internet use and you have documentation showing how many minutes were spent doing things for Wikipedia... More commonly, if you pay for electricity, then you could try to calculate how much electricity you use doing stuff for Wikipedia and how much it costs you. Do not take this too far; if your home computer breaks and you have to go to the public library to work, and you say that you went there only to do stuff for Wikipedia there, and you try to claim the fuel used driving there, the IRS is not going to believe you... 71.109.145.81 (talk) 19:20, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
religious and non religious categorization of living people
Hi Jimmy, in January you were added by User:Metal termite to this list List_of_nontheists_(surnames_T_to_Z) using this supporting citation http://bigthink.com/ideas/4870. Would you help clear this up, are your comments in that link the type of comments that should be allowing us to categorize living people as affiliated with this or that philosophy or group. My position would be, no, in the quoted text, atheism and your self identification or affiliation to that group or philosophy is not mentioned in the dialog. You say you are a complete non believer but don't truly specify if this is aligned to an atheist doctrine. Off2riorob (talk) 09:44, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Appreciate your comment. I agree that the question, is this actually noteworthy in the life of this person should be high on our list of inclusion criteria. Just to let you know, the question arose out of a little discussion at the BLPN. As per this discussion, removedOff2riorob (talk) 18:15, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. Cwill151 (talk) 05:40, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Greetings from the Guild of Copy Editors Backlog Elimination Drive! We have now passed the halfway point, so here's an update.
Progress Report - Progress toward the targets has been good. 751 articles out of the approximately 1,610 we would like to get completed by the end of the month were done by July 16, so we will be very close to meeting the target for volume. However, we would like to clear all of the 2008 articles from the backlog, and there are still 899 left to do. Please consider choosing one of these older articles when looking for something to copy edit. If we focus our firepower we can completely wipe out 2008 from the queue.
Participation Report - 95 people signed up for the July drive. This is a great result compared to May, when we had 36. However, in May only one person that signed up didn't do any copy edits, and in July only 54 of the 91 have posted any copy edits on the big board.
The task may seem insurmountable but please remember that if all 95 participants copy edit just one article a day from now until the end of the month, we will eliminate 1,323 more articles from the backlog. So please consider participating at whatever level you can! All contributions are appreciated.
This newsletter was prepared for the GOCE by Diannaa (Talk), S Masters (talk), and The Raptor Lettuce talk.
(timestamp for auto-archiving) Fram (talk) 07:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo. I just wanted to follow up on our discussion about Mimi Macpherson from a little while back, and ascertain the status of your communications with her. Thanks, NW (Talk) 14:47, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm off to bed now, but I'll check on this tomorrow if I can. I'll be sending her an email, and since she's in Australia, it will probably be a couple of days for the cycle to complete.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, further to our chat at Talk:Friedrich von Bömches, I was wondering if you would like to make a comment in this proposed signpost article? ϢereSpielChequers 16:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Sure, how about something like this: "I'm excited to see this kind of machine-assisted editing. In the foreseeable future, it will not be possible for machines to actually make judgment calls about editorial matters, but it is entirely possible for this type of work, as well as more advanced semantic analysis, to provide useful assistance to human editors, particularly in finding contradictions and anomalies. Merlissimo is a rock star!"--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Jimbo, following the comments from you and others on the BLP noticeboard about the coverage of Lord Monckton's relationship with the House of Lords, I've posted a proposed revised text at Talk:Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley#Monckton and Parliament. Any views you might have would be appreciated. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Jimbo, there is another debate on the proper name for the Climatic Research Unit email controversy, proposing that it be renamed to Climategate per Wikipedia:Article titles#Neutrality and article titles which states in part: True neutrality means we do not impose our opinions over that of the sources, even when our opinion is that the name used by the sources is judgmental.
Your prior comments on the issued are being argued by both sides to infer your support of their position, and I thought it might be easier just to ask you to comment on it, so there is no question. Thanks, GregJackP Boomer! 22:33, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia appears to me like a movement of giving/spreading knowledge to everyone without any anticipation. A great (though not a perfect word) idea and action, I have ever seen.
My topic/questions is.. What do you say about the existence of God ?
Suresh, Hyderabad, India 210.210.13.126 (talk) 09:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
There is a current thread at Talk:The_War_Logs#Remove_easy_access_to_the_papers_from_wikipedia regarding linking to wikileaks. User:Bdell555 is stating that we cannot link to wikileaks because he the material may have been illegally obtained. Is a direct link to wikileaks allowed?Smallman12q (talk) 17:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Just curious, how do arbitrators get elected/selected? AirplaneProRadioChecklist 01:36, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Dear Sir, I'm just curious as to whether you think it is alright for admins to call users "d*cks" (but with an i instead of a *)? EVula called me this repeatedly on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents. I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong, but I didn't realize it was okay to be sweared at by administrators in the process. Just wondering whether this was the future of being part of the WP community? Thanks for your contributions towards society. Sincerely, Njsustain (talk) 18:26, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Jimbo, I'm wondering if the article in question meets WP:GNG and if it does I'm wondering if the policy needs to be fixed. There are millions of restaurants that have similar coverage in local media because they are popular and successful to some degree at PR. I wonder what benefit it is to have articles on them in an encyclopedia. We're not Zagat's, Citisearch or Yelp the last time I checked. I would propose that a majority of articles in Category:Restaurants in the United States by state should not exist here at Wikipedia but maybe my opinion is not shared by others. It strikes me that the type of coverage they get in local media, in the "lifestyle section" type areas of newspapers and magazines, is not a result of the type of notability we are concerned with here but instead local popularity and good PR. Shouldn't there be something other than this type of coverage necessary for a consumer based commercial establishment? I'm curious about your opinion on this.Griswaldo (talk) 13:45, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Jimbo, I have to say that I'm still a little bit concerned about the reception that Njsustain received when s/he tried to take on this matter originally. I know you are not the enforcer of behavioral rules around here but I wanted to make this comment out loud because the original discussion was about that reception. Njsustain has probably learned something about better ways to handle these types of issues but it is very disheartening to see several admins on AN/I overlook the very clear issues with the entry to the benefit of a fellow admin. Njsustain clearly had a very relevant gripe here, and it would be good to know that admins hanging around AN/I will evaluate these things a bit more thoroughly before jumping to their buddy's defense. I hope they are also learning from this incident as I'm sure Nj is. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 19:09, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Internet used to be run by thick skinned elephants. Nowadays it's Eternal September: as more people come online , we have more PFY's throwing out much more profanity than they used to, and also much thinner skinned people coming online too. Ye Olde Elephants tend to flock to new innovations, and were the first to populate wikipedia, hence some of our older users and policies use more colorful language than the newer ones. --Kim Bruning (talk) 13:45, 27 July 2010 (UTC) goshdangit!
Everytime I come across articles on controversial science subjects I am astounded to see how distorted and disparaging Wikipedia's coverage is about minority viewpoints and the people who espouse them. One example is user:keepcalmandcarryon's ongoing campaign to disparage biographical subjects like Philip E. Johnson, who questioned the HIV-AIDS connection. He misrepresents sources, for example this 1995 letter shows that the subject signed onto the opinion that [5] "Other independent researchers should examine the validity of the so-called "AIDS tests," especially when these tests are used in Africa and Southern Asia, to see if they reliably record the presence of antibodies, let alone live and replicating virus." But it's being used to state that "HIV tests do not detect HIV". Where does it say that? Is questioning a connection the same as saying it does not exist? And why is the present tense being used for an opinion stated in the mid-90s? Here is the article before his disortions were added which I think is quite clear [6].
Of course anyone seeking to correct the subtle distortion and disparagement used to advance favored POVs is labeled as a fringe nutjob and attacked. Frankly, if Wikipedia can't do a better job of abiding by its own BLP policies I wonder if it should be shut down.
The problem of the William Connolleys and the Mastcells who use the encyclopedia to advance their personal beliefs and abuse their roles as admins and editors is widespread. Even dispute tags and citation needed tags from controversial content are removed, and the noticeboards are abused to go after those making an effort to make the accounts accurate.
In the Peter Duesberg article they've gone as far as reordering the chronology of his career so the article focuses almost exclusively on his controversial views on AIDS. I have no objection to being clear and straightforward about controversies and criticisms, they are certainly missing from much of our political coverage, but outright lying and distortions of this sort, misrepresentations of what is in sources, and maligning of unpopular subjects is beyond the pale. There should be zero tolerance for editors and especially admins who engage in these pursuits or aid them in any way. I have never had cause to doubt the HIV-AIDS connection and it certainly represents what I consider a fringe viewpoint, now more than ever, but we shouldn't lie about what kind of opinions those questioning consensus views held or seek to disparage and misrespresent the facts about their careers. I would appreciate your suggestions on how to address this serious problem on Wikipedia. The denialist article was a good example of how terms are being defined in a selective way and then used in other articles to disparage subjects, although I see now it has been improved a bit. Freakshownerd (talk) 21:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Here's an example of damaging slander just added by Keepcalmandcarryoh: (Johnson) "has also lamented the presence of Muslims on US university campuses, ascribing to Muslims a chilling effect on free speech."
The actual statement from the source [8] (in response to a question about 9/11) is: "Now we're seeing how the country is almost cringing in fear of these Muslim terrorists from the Middle East. I see professors afraid to discuss the subject because they're afraid of what the Muslim students will do. They're afraid it won't keep the peace on campus. I never thought our country would descend to this level."
It's a clear and intentional distortion and misrespresentation that is absolutely slanderous. And if Keepcalmandcarryon isn't blocked for the pattern of the malicious misrespresentations he's adding to these article subjects, then my point is really made for me, is it not? And please don't accuse me of making legal threats. If he is allowed to distort article content then I hope someone does sue to shut down the propogation of these disgusting lies, but it won't be me files the claim, I can't be bothered. I'm just pointing out the problem in clear and accurate language. Wikipedia is being used to viciously disparage and attack subjects that aren't popular with a group of powerful admins and editors, and nothing is being done to stop them. Freakshownerd (talk) 22:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't get it. - 24.228.98.108 (talk) 11:20, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps you have an opinion to offer in this AN/I discussion involving the activities of an admin, WP:NPA, and civility in general? Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:05, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I am sorry to say that a day later individuals remain slandered by willfull distortions and misrepresentation of their comments and views in Wikipedia articles. It is distressing to see that you and admins like Mastcell are willing to stand by while the people who are article subjects are denigrated in this way.
I challenge you to find a reliable source that says Philip E. Johnson wrote that "HIV tests do not detect HIV". This is an utter fabrication. It is also false that he has written that "HIV does not cause AIDS". He questioned the relation between the two in the 1990s and called for further study. His article also includes innaccurate paraphrases of cherry picked quotes taken out of context. Nowhere does Johnson say "the US has lost its strength by relinquishing its faith in the 'true God'" Nowhere does he state a goal of trying to return "Christianity to pride of place in US society." And it's also misleading to say that he says "academics are afraid to discuss certain subjects because they fear Muslim students," when in fact he said that professors were afraid to discuss the subject of Muslim terrorism for fear of how Muslim students will react. In each case we see his words and writings being twisted and distorted, misrepresented, taken out of context, and used to denigrate him and his views.
If you take the BLP policy as well as our other editing policies seriously, I call on you to take swift action to empower good faith editors and administrators to take on this epidemic of attacks on biographical subjects and the misguided editors and admins who are carrying them out and encouraging them. There are many more examples of this kind of distortion and abuse and it needs to stop. Freakshownerd (talk) 15:31, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
This tidbit in the Bradley Manning article is another example: "However, in light of Manning's micro viewpoint of the war, he instead decided he knew better than anyone else and endangered thousands of soldiers lives by leaking the classified information."
Maybe you'll be more responsive when someone subpeona's you? I'm going to keep making you aware of biased, improperly cited, and slanderous content until you respond. Freakshownerd (talk) 18:10, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
It strikes me that this dispute is a routine editing dispute that ought to be easy to resolve. One of the best ways to improve things, when people are concerned that a summary of someone's view is not accurate, is to quote the person directly, or to propose an alternative summary to try to find agreement. On the specific content issue, I think it fairly clear that "HIV tests do not test for HIV" - as a standalone - is not an uncontroversial summary of Johnson's position. But surely there is a summary of his position that can be found readily which both captures the nuance of what he was saying, and yet would satisfy those who would be critical of him. I don't know enough about the history of this particular controversy (I remember reading about it 10 years ago or so) to be able to write a proper summary of his position myself, but I do know that it is very often that case that scientists who take minority positions, particularly when those positions turn out to be wrong in the end, are often caricatured in a way that's unfair.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Re: Jimbo, I think we can reach a consensus representation that will be honest with the reader, fair to the subject, and satisfactory to involved editors (I agree we're not there yet). Personally, though, I'm not going to touch the article with a ten-foot pole until I see Freakshownerd calm down at least a little bit, because I don't think it's worth it until that happens. MastCell Talk 16:53, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
What is Wikipedia's plan of action for dealing this sort of thing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China#Propaganda_on_the_Internet
"It is believed that such government-sponsored Internet commentators have now become widespread and their numbers could be in the tens of thousands;[34] Bandurski suggests the number may be up to 280,000[32] while The Guardian puts the estimate as 300,000.[35] According to The Guardian, the growth in popularity of such astroturfing owes to the ease with which web 2.0 technologies such as Twitter, Wikipedia and YouTube can be employed to sway public opinion. The BBC reports that special centres have been set up to train China's 'army of internet spin doctors'.[34]"
I also noticed that a user editing an article that I am working on where whitewashing has been occurring editing this article about this other government organization that
"JIDF members also edit content on Wikipedia entries and monitor YouTube and Google Earth. JIDF's measures include reporting Wikipedia editors it claims are anti-Israel, and taking action against entries seen as including one-sided or false accounts of the history of Israel and the Mideast conflict. On Google Earth, it has taken steps to remove photos showing Palestinian villages listed as having been destroyed during the foundation of the State of Israel."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIDF#Elsewhere_on_the_Web
I understand that there is an admin noticeboard, but if some admins are also paid full time government employees it becomes less potent. If a dispute comes about, it would be difficult to take the time for an average Wikipedia user to counteract a gang of full time government employees who continuously make misleading statements that might appear to an uninvolved admin passing through to be true solely because a group of users are making these statements.
I'm not sure if this is what is going on with the article I am currently editing. It's possible that the group is just a group of nationalists attempting to whitewash an article, but it is possible that some of the users are government employees as the wikipedia article relates to alleged international spying although its title has been changed and content about spying has been pushed to the bottom of the page in favor of an almost unnotable tourist trap in a different country. I understand that it important to combat racism, but government and sometimes corporate officials being paid to edit articles clearly fall under the category of propaganda.
Thus, I ask, What is Wikipedia's plan for dealing with government propaganda organizations?
Thank you for your time. Preciseaccuracy (talk) 20:23, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I am not under government or corporate employment to edit articles on Wikipedia. However, it is possible that I or any other user is under government/corporate employment to edit Wikipedia articles. Does Wikipedia have a plan of action for dealing with this? Anyway, the user above Shuki is one of the editors causing trouble with the article I am working on. He claims along with other users that a tourist trap in China is somehow reasonably connected to Allegations of Israel spying on the United States and that the tourist trap in China should be the focus of an article originally about Suspected Spying . Side note: It's interesting that after months of the Chinese tourist trap section overshadowing the section about spying allegations, only about an hour or two after posting here, the section about the tourist trap has finally been allowed to move from the top to the bottom of the Wikipedia article.Preciseaccuracy (talk) 01:14, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Is there a specific process to undertake for editing an article where there is likely involvement of a paid corporate or government editors?
I understand that there is an admin noticeboard, but if some admins are also paid full time government employees it becomes less potent. Some users that are government employees could build there way up by editing unrelated articles, but when a key dispute comes up they could enter pretending to be neutral. If a dispute comes about, it would be difficult to take the time for an average Wikipedia user to counteract a gang of full time government employees who continuously make misleading statements that might appear to another uninvolved admin passing through to be true solely because a group of users are making these statements. Preciseaccuracy (talk) 18:46, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
For highly contentious political topics, if one posts the article on a community board those users with the strongest political views related to a topic are most likely to respond along with only a few neutral users. The politically motivated users will have more reason to stick with a topic so will stick with it longer than editors who aren't politically invested.
Is there a way that people completely politically uninvolved could be randomly chosen to edit an article. For example, in some situations, instead of having people choose the article they want to edit, some sort of random generator could choose a group people to look at that article. Although, then people might question if the generator is actually random. Anyway, I agree that if one shines more light on the article that could certainly help so I posted the dispute on the neutral point of view board.Preciseaccuracy (talk) 00:38, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo
(If you have already done some but not updated your stats then I apologise, in advance, for the next sentence lol)
It is the last day of the drive and even though I know you are a very busy person I was hoping you could edit an article for the backlogdrive. It would be really great if you could muscle some of the long list of things you have to do out of the way and find 30 minutes or so to do a few articles. It really would help to show that even those that have such small amounts of time can still manage to make a difference :¬)
Chaosdruid (talk) 01:31, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Seeing as you are on the advisory board of the CK-12 Foundation, I would appreciate it if you could forward my concern over the decision at some point in the past few months to change the licensing of the website and all the books produced by this organization to CC-BY-NC-SA from CC-BY-SA. While I had already downloaded the clearly marked, acceptably-licensed PDF versions of the books I am slowly working on transcribing to Wikibooks (CK-12 Books) and uploaded them to Commons, this unfortunate change in course will mean that no new books produced by them will be able to be made available for wider distribution via Wikimedia or purchase through PediaPress. Thank you. Adrignola (talk) 21:49, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I will do what I can!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:20, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
FWIW, CK-12's Murugan Pal gave a presentation at Wikimania 2008 ("Federating Wikipedia as Open Educational Resource"), where he also briefly discussed licensing policies and the problem of license incompatibility (e.g. in the parts starting around 12:00 and 15:30 in the video). Regards, HaeB (talk) 15:33, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Somebody care to build on what I've started? Dr. Blofeld - 15:36, 18 July 2010 (UTC) 22:11, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
The reaosn why I came here is that we've been in the news recently about collaborating with google. Google has started with helping translate on Hindi Wikipedia. I thought somebody here might give a damn about it, obviously not. Dr. Blofeld - 15:36, 18 July 2010 (UTC) 13:14, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Thank you very much for commenting on the Talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy page. I greatly appreciate not only your logic but your civility.
My heading refers to my observation that Wikipedia has become a monster of sorts. It seems human nature needs checks and balances....and a police force. You are an admirable and rare example of following the rules you make for others, but I see Lord of the Flies playing out here. I'm requesting a stronger regulating authority at Wikipedia--a police force, if you will.
The only other online site in which I participate is FunTrivia, a family-friendly quiz site ruled by a benevolent dictator with a loyal cadre of lieutenants who ensure we adhere to his rules, not least of which is civility. Can you not do the same? I believe we would see much more progress on the encyclopedia if you did.
Here are some of my thoughts: To a fellow editor: Although not designed as such, WP is, among other things, a social experiment, whether Jimbo accepts that fact or not. I've long thought it was similar to the boys on that island [in Lord of the Flies]—a microcosm where human nature takes its inevitable course as the pecking order is established and justice lurches blindly.
To another fellow editor: As you can't help but being aware, I think the article should be titled "Climategate." Nevertheless, we have to work within the framework that is actually present, not the ideal one laid out in the 5 Pillars and the many pages of policy. There are clearly controlling editors who will not even look at the sources we provide, who will not even consider or investigate the fact that "Climategate" is the most common term. Therefore, I think it's in everyone's best interest to lay this issue aside for months--or even years--until history makes this usage impossible to avoid.
To a third fellow editor: I myself find it difficult to let outrageous statements pass, but it seems to be in the best interests of everyone and everything at present. They aren't listening, they don't want to listen, they are entrenched. Trying to convince them only makes them dig in deeper. They're in siege mode, and rightfully so, under an onslaught of evidence they don't want to consider. They are intelligent and, aside from blind spots, informed, so eventually they should wake up and smell the coffee. The article isn't changing right now whether we are silent or adamant, so we may as well try to foster some good feelings that could lead to cooperation later.
Imo, editors such as those to whom I refer in my third comment impede progress, or "keep the article hostage," to use their own terminology. Those who keep arguing against something and who refuse to document their own assertions or investigate the documentation of other editors' assertions should not be allowed to take up time and space on WP pages, again, imo.
Wrt to WP:CIVIL, many times I have seen rudeness such as you addressed regarding "bollocks" allowed to stand, the guilty editor continuing to insult with impunity, and then see that same editor cry "Personal attack!" or shut someone down with WP:CIVIL when the offense was much less or even, so far as I can tell, entirely imaginary. A police force, properly deployed, should be able to curb that kind of behavior.
Thanks for your time, thanks for creating and maintaining Wikipedia, and best wishes, --Yopienso (talk) 01:17, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
That is why I use the word "hijacked" of the NPOV policy. I use it advisedly, and I see what has been happening as a major threat to Wikipedia's neutrality. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 18:00, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
{edit conflict} Dave, Jimbo commented on the CRUec talk page that "Climategate" and "scandal" are part and parcel of this controversy. Some of us have compiled lists proving just that. The editors who have the "strangle-hold," however, refuse to accept them and typically refuse to even look at them. Just today I provided a list of articles that use the word "scandal," and the first response was from an editor who falsely claimed, "Most, if not all of those sources are either outdated or slanted opinion pieces." My complaint is precisely this refusal to admit evidence, and in itself is evidence of NPOV. At this point in its development, WP seems to need a police force to uphold its lofty ideals. --Yopienso (talk) 19:26, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Bad faith, Mr. Souza, can only be presumed in the absence of proof to the contrary. Rest assured, I make no presumptions. Following 100+ hours of observation, analysis, and occassional interaction with the cadre of editors so closely guarding that hot button issue, I can say with absolute certainty that my opinion of them has moved beyond bad faith to sit squarely in the realm of no faith at all. If the matter ever went before arbitration, there would be little challenge in demonstrating a clear and prolonged pattern of bias, intimidation, and groupthink being employed to manipulate the content of those articles. Furthermore, it is not our task to assign motives to the media's coverage of a topic (unless those motives are the subject of the topic itself), nor is it to synthesize theories as to a 'political ideology' driving it.--K10wnsta (talk) 21:09, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I gotta agree with the spirit of Yopienso's observations even though I have not had that specific problem. The problem I've noticed is that, in our (Wikipedians in general) zeal to enforce some rules, we are forgetting others. FAITH and BITE in particular that are being increasingly disregarded. I think this is partly because it has become so easy to tag articles (and the corresponding talk pages) and rollback revisions that we just do it automatically. We don't stop and think about whether or not the revision was really vandalism (as opposed to just incorrect) or if the editor was intentionally creating a irrelevant article. Tagging articles and rolling back revisions isn't intended to be a personal criticism, but for the person who has been tagged and rolled back, its gotta sting. Does that make sense?
For example, a newbie editor started an article on a local club. But he didn't follow protocol. First he created a redirect, then he created the page, with just the title, then he started writing the article. Well, faster than you could say Wikipedia, the page with just the title had a SPEEDY tag on it. And while I agree that the article, as it stood, was deserving of a SPEEDY delete, the newbie editor, deserved the benefit of GOOD FAITH. But he wasn't going to get it because he was too busy writing his article to realize that it was already up for deletion.--*Kat* (talk) 06:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the Yopienso's view as well, but this is also occurring in the world outside of Wikipedia. WP struggles most and most visibly with controversial articles, making them the least valuable of the entries. Climategate wont be Climategate until it ceases to be controversial... i.e. the controversy about it in the non WP world is somehow settled.Thelmadatter (talk) 18:24, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
(ec) The issue goes well beyond CC, although that's a good case in point, and in any case Arbcom decides behavior, not content policies. I think the frustration expressed here, on Jimbo's page, by many editors, conveys an implicit wish on their part. Years ago, when Wikipedia was in its diapers, Jimbo made some critical points about neutrality and verifiability, which have become the foundation of our current sourcing policies. I think now that Wikipedia is an almost grownup, it's time to right the ship again, or apply another needed course correction. As I see it, the problem is that many editors feel that it is their holy duty to educate the masses based on the mainstream views, and that any dissenting opinions are blasphemous heresy. It is important to understand that Wikipedia is not a teacher, but a librarian: we present the sources in our library to our customers, in a neutral fashion, without picking favorites and suppressing the views we don't like, except a tiny minority lunatic fringe. When we start suppressing all dissent, we lose the most important advantage of our product: openness. It's time for someone, perhaps Jimbo, to take this to heart and get us back on course, into adulthood. Crum375 (talk) 17:28, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
But because of the way UNDUE is written and interpreted, we are not allowed to use other sources (sources who are not Historians) to say "hang on, this sounds a bit odd," just as we are not allowed to use Arthur Butz, who has studied some of the holocaust evidence and has written a book saying, "hang on, this sounds a bit odd." Pointing out that things sound a bit odd is not allowed unless it comes from one of the High Priests of Specialist Knowledge. But even there, if one of the High Priests dissents, he is knocked off his High Priest pedestal (e.g. Harry Elmer Barnes, who is suddenly not really a historian). Hipocrite (talk) 05:45, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
ChrisO, dave souza, et al., are missing the point, or making the wrong point. As per usual. They keep trying to make this a "skeptics vs. scientists" debate. It's not. Most of this topic area isn't purely about science. For example, why exactly is it they resist calling the CRU article "Climategate"???? Lots of material has been put forward to show that's how everyone else refers to it. But calling it that instead of "the controversy about the stealing of email, and oh by the way CRU and all the scientists are perfect" does not fit that faction's POV. For another example, why do skeptic bios get stuff stuffed in them to make the LP subject look bad and non skeptic bios get stuff stuffed in them to make the LP subject look good? This faction needs to be returned to the Wikipedia way. It's way overdue. We can hope that ArbCom, without changing policy, and without making content decisions, will nevertheless rein them in, because their behavior is problematic. No ifs ands or buts about it. I'm emphatically not a skeptic. I think skeptics are confused, badly. But I cannot stomach this factions tactics. ++Lar: t/c 03:35, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
MONGO: I work on the 9/11 conspiracy theories articles, too, so you know I'm no fringe theorist, but what's going on at the Climategate article is beyond the pale. The article title is one example where we are clearly in violation of WP:NPOV. The whole world calls it Climategate except Wikipedia. That's completely against what WP:NPOV is about. I compiled a very long list of reliable sources which call it Climategate yet editors are still refusing to change the name.[18] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:06, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
I see that the Climate change ArbCom case deliberations have moved here, without the editors being informed about that. As I argued at the ArbCom case, the dispute on Wikipedia is caused by indoctrination by conservative media. Lar does seem to have a point about BLPs. However, we have to note here that the biased media reporting leads to people with sceptical opinions that are totally wrong and insignificant to become notable precisely because the conservative media will pick up this "noise" and amplify it.
Now, one can debate how Wikipedia should deal with this issue. But we can see that the way the climate change subjects have been covered, implies that there are mechanisms at work at Wikipedia that will lead to the bias in the conservative media being filtered out from Wikipedia. These mechanisms cannot be fully attributed to the Wiki-policies. That's why the editors who would like to see articles give more weight to the conservative POV are complaining; the rules seem to suggest that they should have their way to some extent, but they are not. They then argue that the other editors are to blame; if only they would stop editing the climate change articles, things would "improve".
But I think the state of the climate change articles reflects quite accurately the opinion of the editors who are not editing the articles. The number of people who have the climate change articles on their wachlist is far greater than the number of regular editors. The bulk of the people watching the articles are satisfied with the way the climate change articles are written. Only if there is a perturbation away from the ideal state of an article and it is not corrected by one of the regulars for a while, then some of these non-regulars will step in. The regulars are self-selected members of the group of all editors. Over time an equilibrium state has been reached in which whatever the regulars are doing, has the support of the wider community. Count Iblis (talk) 16:43, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
So if this were the time of Christopher Columbus and all mainstream sources said the world is flat, we would not be able to write about scientific evidence and theories concerning a world that is round? Don't forget, some great scientists weren't well respected during their times, but now their theorems are in scientific texts.Preciseaccuracy (talk) 01:00, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
MONGO: The problem I'm encountering is that editors won't allow (or try to remove) the AGW skeptic POV in articles about or directly related to AGW skepticism. It's absolutely insane. I've never seen such a thing before. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:10, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Here's what the sources say
Primary source Case Ref: FER0238017 Date: 07/07/2010 Public Authority: University of East Anglia Summary: The complainant made a number of requests for information related to the involvement of some of the public authority’s staff in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. The Commissioner has found that the public authority breached regulation 14(2) of the EIR by failing to provide a response to a request within 20 working days and breached regulation 5(2) by failing to provide a response to other requests. Section of Act/EIR & Finding: EIR 5(2) - Complaint Upheld , EIR 14(2) - Complaint Upheld. View PDF of Decision Notice FER0238017 http://www.ico.gov.uk/tools_and_resources/decision_notices/2010_07.aspx
Secondary sources University in hacked climate change emails row broke FOI rules
• Too late to take action, says deputy commissioner
The University of East Anglia flouted Freedom of Information regulations in its handling of requests for data from climate sceptics, according to the government body that administers the act.
In a statement, the deputy information commissioner Graham Smith said emails between scientists at the university's Climatic Research Unit (CRU) that were hacked and placed on the internet in November revealed that FOI requests were "not dealt with as they should have been under the legislation". http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jan/27/uea-hacked-climate-emails-foi
The university at the centre of the climate change row over stolen e-mails broke the law by refusing to hand over its raw data for public scrutiny.
The University of East Anglia breached the Freedom of Information Act by refusing to comply with requests for data concerning claims by its scientists that man-made emissions were causing global warming.
The Information Commissioner’s Office decided that UEA failed in its duties under the Act but said that it could not prosecute those involved because the complaint was made too late, The Times has learnt. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7004936.ece
Tertiary source Climate researchers at the University of East Anglia in the United Kingdom broke the law by withholding data from public scrutiny, say various reports today. http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2010/01/climate-researc.html
I've bolded the essential phrases that show the FOI Act was broken. --Yopienso (talk) 01:50, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Could everyone not just wait until the ArbCom issues its findings on whether the articles relating to CC/AGW have been edited in policy and practice complaint ways or not, and whether some editors (and admins, perhaps) have misunderstood or misrepresented policy in their desire to see certain viewpoints presented or removed from articles? Once ArbCom make their decision(s), then editors - those that are permitted to continue contributing - can argue whether the results were correct or not over differing pages. As it is, this issue is really starting to poison parts of WP outside of the specific article space - and none of the involved parties appear close to considering changing their stances. Why not just wait for the results to come in? LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Stats If you copy edited at least 4,000 words, you qualify for a barnstar. If you edited in the May 2010 GOCE Backlog Elimination Drive, your word totals are cumulative for barnstars (not the leaderboard). Over the course of the next week or two, we will be handing out the barnstars.
Gold Star Award
Coordinator: ɳorɑfʈ Talk! Co-coordinators: Diannaa TALK and S Masters (talk) | Newsletter by: The Raptor You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions
Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of The Utahraptor at 18:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC).
Dear Jimbo, I've just seen your response posted a few months ago. You must have developed an interesting set of new skills over the pass ten years which I hope you've been able to gain further enjoyment from, but I also hope that you've not gotten lost for too long in a Wiki-jungle.
In 2001 I thought Wiki was an interesting experiment, and I still do. In fact it is currently virtually an indispensable reference tool for the planet. I also think the basic idea was in a grey area between wanting to be anonymous and being a publishing system like Ted Nelson's Xanadu was went to be. During these ten years a number of dispute and resolution 'systems' have been developed - these are kludges, they are not eloquent or intuitive like the base Wiki concept but they are essential.
I think Wiki needs a users guide/manual.
There is no intuitive guide, there are links to links which people can follow like a rabbit warren, you may find a 'solution' only to be told by a buck-rabbit that you didn't use the intended section of the warren 200 metres away. It's great for the bucks who live there, they have advantage to maintain their POV. Your responses about being "premature" and "not likely to feel as nice as I hope" are well intentioned but said from point of a person for whom the warren seems intuitive when it is not. I've been editing Wikipeia since 2001, I've spent the last three years caught in a series of ugly Supreme Court litigations, I've designed telecommunication networks and done a thousand other things; but I'm not willing or able to spend six months mapping the Wiki jungle which is still growing. I'm quite able to deal with jargon and game rules, but there should be a copy of those rules and the jargon in one place.
Hope that prospective helps, I know somebody somewhere has probably done this but if they have it's lost inside the warren somewhere.Daeron (talk) 01:02, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
I've started a project here meant to (a) encourage readers to edit and (b) explain the basics in simple terms. Your thoughts here or on the project talk page would be very welcome. Anthony (talk) 11:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
I have nominated The Lazarus Effect (film), an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Lazarus Effect (film). Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.
Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. John Vandenberg (chat) 07:01, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
A lot of the most prolific Wikipedians, or at least many of them, also seem to have a screw loose. But that doesn't mean their work is useless.
I'd wondered what was rattling. --Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 23:40, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Not only Wikipedians, but also in all other endeavors throughout history and pre-history. Michael Hardy (talk) 23:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Im still waiting for my tax write offs! :D Thelmadatter (talk) 01:25, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
I agree with your assessment of COI as I, roughly, understand it here. My view has always been if an editors edits are good for Wikipedia, then a COI doesnt matter, if they are bad for Wikipedia, then a COI doesnt help, either way, COI is mostly irrelevant. I am curious what you think of this edit, from a neutrality prospective. Despite what others may think, I do want to write a neutral, factual article, I just dont think that adding a bunch of positive, but inconsequential material is the way to do it. Bonewah (talk) 01:15, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Have you thought lately about appointing some new admins? Check out File:Active_admins_by_month,_December_2007_to_August_2010.png. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:03, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
That's right. Our expectations for people applying for adminship are much higher than expectations for actual admins. We need to decrease our expectations for people applying for adminship. I mean, we can't expect the perfect admin, can we? The Raptor You rang?/My mistakes; I mean, er, contributions 20:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
I don't think the following users have any business on here:
KnightsoftheWhiteCamelia KuKluxKicken KuKluxKleagle —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.177.47.225 (talk) 01:29, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
I heard that somewhere, and I agree. Why then are we allowing articles like Gharlane of Eddore (pen name) to exist? It relies solely on Usenet posts, blog memoirs and a citation in The Register as its source of information. Interestingly enough, this is a WP:BLP article but refers to a person by their pen name. Is that excuse to skirt around our living person's policy these days? I'm quite curious. JBsupreme (talk) ✄ ✄ ✄ 20:47, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Maybe it wouldn't hurt to remember what a tabloid is: it's a newspaper that is physically substantially smaller, in length and width of pages, than a broadsheet newspaper. Michael Hardy (talk) 23:16, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
To be clear, when I use the term "tabloid" I mean unreliable source and am not making any reference to print size/format. JBsupreme (talk) ✄ ✄ ✄ 06:20, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Can we move this to WP:RSN? --Cyclopiatalk 17:50, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Do you think that perhaps the recent publicity over wiki-leaks, first from their leaking large amounts of material regarding the Afghan war and now over their founder being accused of molestation in Sweden (or rape, I havent been following it too closely), will perhaps have some negative association for the Wikimedia Foundation? We know it isnt assocated with the Foundation but with so many different projects like Wikisources, Wikibooks, Wikitionary, Wikipedia, is not possible that the average person would assume that Wikileaks is assocated with the Foundation as well? Has anyone personally heard of any possible confusion by "lay-persons" outside the project?Camelbinky (talk) 01:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)