Jimbo, I know you are busy and this page is overloaded with crap but please take a moment to read this. I am an experienced Wikipedian (User:Piotrus with 62k edits on English Wikipedia and the 47th Most Active Wikipedian) and a PhD candidate with 1 paper on Wikipedia published, another one in review process and two more in draft stages.
I am writing to you with regards to an issue of what I and many of my collegues (scholars of Wikipedia) believe is of utmost urgency. To be brief, we need to prioritize General User Survey (a project of Wikimedia Research Network) and launch it as soon as possible.
GUS, as it is known, is described on meta here. The goal is to survey editors (not users, although if needed this could be changed), and collect basic demographic data (gender, country of residence, age, education level, income). We could also ask questions about editor's experience with Wikipedia, community involvement and so on. The survey could be advertised over a period of a week or so via the same announcement system that the fundraiser or ArbCom / Board elections are (at the top of Wikipedia). It could be easily expanded to other Wikimedia Foundation projects, and via translation, to other wikis (German and Hebrew Wikipedias have done such surveys in the past, links are at the GUS page).
We have preliminary questions ready at the above address, but with no support from developers - or anybody with software skills - we are stuck in more or less the same place since 2005. I believe that a tiny nudge from the Board that would encourage some of the developers to finish the survey and launch it is all we need.
The need for GUS has been raised on every Wikimania, at Wiki-research-l, in recent Wikipedia Weekly podcast, and several research papers. Even you yourself cannot truthfully answer in interviews 'who' edits Wikipedia, because we don't know - and each day we are losing data of immense value on our groundbreaking project/community. We should have done this survey years ago, and it should be a yearly event. Once the survey is completed, it will surely generate much interest in academia and media.
The survey, being done online, should be cheap (if it will cost as at all). A time of a few developers is all we need; unless we decide to use an external service like we have done for the Board elections or use one of the services suggested at the GUS page - but the costs, if any, should be a tiny fraction of current Wikimedia budget - and the benefits will be huge.
The survey will benefit everyone - scholars will understand the unique rise of Wikipedia better; reliability of the project and wikis in general will improve as more research is done in that area; we - the editors - will understand ourselves better, media will have something to report, additional awareness will generate more funds, and so on.
Your sincerely
-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 01:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
The University of Minnesota is also doing quite a bit of research on WP. Good luck to all scholars that want to help this place! Nice (talk) 14:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Bottom line is that scholars see the need for such a survey. That non-scholars don't is not a surprise. General public knows little about what science is, and this will never change. Letting scholars research what they want usually works better than listening to general public and directing research based on that.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 21:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
(cross posted from Wikipedia talk: Articles for creation)
I am an experienced wikipedian with several thousand edits, but I just wanted to quickly add a redirect, and didn't want to compromise my account by logging in from an insecure computer that I am using. After all, wikipedia is a new kind of encyclopaedia that anyone can edit, RIGHT? Well, it's a SHAME, SHAME, SHAME what kind of non-sense one had to go through to create a new article as an anon user, even if it be a paltry redirect. Disgusting how I had to go through all this you are not going to promote yourself, you can submit your IDEA for an article, blah, blah, blah ad infinitum. Well, that'll serve me right: I'll know now how discriminating and intimidating can wikipedia be for new users. Thanks a lot! 74.94.146.241 09:20, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I totally totally agree with 74.94.146.241 -- 80.126.238.189 (AKA Kim Bruning 18:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC))
It strikes me that many administrators and a few other longtime contributors maintain a fully registered alternate account, listed on their usual talk page, for this specific set of circumstances. Perhaps the editor posting as an anon might want to consider that. (This suggestion is predicated on the theory that, by the time the group editing WP:SOCK finishes, it will still be an acceptable use of an alternate account.) Risker 19:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Mr Wales. I am an IB Diploma student from Bosnia and Herzegovina, a Wikipedia fan and occasional contributor. In my course of ITGS, I have worked on a portfolio regarding Wikipedia. Now I have a task of extending this portfolio where I need to interview someone with a deeper understanding of Wikipedia, so I thought, who could have better understanding of it than its founder? I would be really grateful if you could consider answering on no more than ten questions regarding Wikipedia for my project.Bwanaunsignedhype 22:44, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Hey Jimbo, just wanted to stop by to say what an awesome thing it is you've created. "Esto perpetua" Mbisanz 09:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I tried to talk to Durova (see User talk:Durova/Archive 38#Devil's advocate) about what went wrong; and her inability to assume good faith prevented her from getting my point. Or maybe it was the hubris she has mentioned. Or maybe it was something else. We all see the world though our subjective-colored glasses. I do. You, Jimmy, do too.
Society has a long history of trying to perfect its ability to ascertain right/wrong truth/fiction. Logical argument based on evidence between opposing sides has been established by science and modern society as the best that can be achieved. The opposite of that is a one-sided star-chamber evaluation where group-think reigns unopposed.
I noticed that the Wikipedia Foundation paid an expert to help tutor the board members (I forget on what) to improve their ability to perform their unpaid jobs as board members. That was a very good idea. Maybe something similar could be arranged to help you with your unpaid job of liaison between the Foundation and the flagship English language Wikipedia's community. You have been making a lot of mistakes lately, and there no one available even remotely qualified to replace you in this role. WAS 4.250 (talk) 05:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
_________________________________________________
The below suggestions, if implemented, would in my opinion: decrease drama at Wikipedia, increase confidence in the administration of Wikipedia, decrease time wasted at Wikipedia in responding to drama, and increase confidence in your judgement.
WAS 4.250 (talk) 11:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
We could ask Wikipedians in general to comment on these suggestions at a Request For Comment; but I really think you are better off bouncing these off experts. WAS 4.250 (talk) 11:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I can't believe more people aren't endorsing the above suggestions. This is damn good advice, but without people chiming in and saying so, nobody -- not even an objectivist -- is likely to be able to overcome the subjective knee-jerk reaction, and see the good in these suggestion. I also agree with the modification that "Don't edit articles" should be "Use an anonymous sockpuppet to edit articles."
Remember the last episode of The Prisoner where Number Six goes in front of the assembly that dissolves into pandemonium in response to everything Number Six says? There's truth there. You could be the best contributor in the whole project, but people are going to try to shoot you down because you're the BMOC. That means even the most well-meaning action can result in a lot more than "unnecessary drama" -- hurt feelings, bad publicity, and worse are more and more likely as time goes by.
Jimbo, I urge you to take the advice above, and I hope others will join in to help convince you. MilesAgain 15:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, if that's what you thought at first it's probably right - because it's how it looks on the surface. I am starting to think that some people - I don't mean you - are more concerned about how to put Jimbo in his place, whatever place that is supposed to be, than in cooperating with his efforts. I think it's those people who need to take a look at themselves. I have no idea about the German wikipedia, but I'm pretty unimpressed by the smart-arse response on the English wikipedia to the Mzoli's article. Really, if Jimbo, of all people, has been to a place in South Africa, says it's notable, creates the beginnings of an article and asks for a chance to develop it, what sort of idiot is not going to take him at his word? There are people around here who, on the most charitable reading, have no common sense. Metamagician3000 00:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
This is purely a curiosity question, Jimbo: What's on your watchlist? - Chardish 06:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
A motley assortment of random crap. Mostly problematic WP:BLP's that I try to help keep an eye on. :) --Jimbo Wales 17:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I just read the Register article on Wikipedia's "Secret Mailing List." It seems to me that Wikipedia's business model consists of lying to people to get free work out of them, combined with scamming donations out of other people to buy bandwidth to serve the content the first set of people produce. Content, I might add, whose factual accuracy rivals that of Usenet. Wikipedia publicly represents itself as this fuzzy egalitarian organization which does everything by "consensus," but that's a far cry from how it's really run. New people arrive, having bought into the PR, edit for a while, and then either align with the ruling Cabal or get disgusted and leave. Anyone who dissents is accused of trolling, disruption, or not being here to write an encyclopedia. People get banned all the time, their talk pages are locked, with no discussion permitted within the community, and appeals only to Arbcom. Given the number of sites critical of Wikipedia that currently exist, and the number of irate ex-editors who feel they were treated unfairly, do you still maintain that they are all wrong, and only you are right?
At the very least, you should update the fluffy public description of Wikipedia's inner workings to better coincide with reality, even if you have no intention of modifying your behavior. The lackluster response to the current fundraiser is a good indication of how Wikipedia's reputation is declining. 66.235.57.169 16:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your interest and concern. I would recommend that getting one's new from the Register may not be the most effective way to learn about reality. Indeed, people do get banned all the time. Thank goodness. Some of our critics have some things right. Others have most things wrong. I sometimes make mistakes myself. Thanks for asking. --Jimbo Wales 17:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I hate to bring this up again, but as a user who's only been truly active for a relatively short period, trying to do a bit of voluntary work here and there, I was quite shocked to stumble upon this[4] and this[5]. First of all, you appear to use chilling effect against a certifiably good editor. Also, you take sides in a dispute caused by another editor making it her mission to systematically not assume Good Faith, and to embroil others in that game in a non-transparent and backhanded way. Isn't the loss of one excellent editor (at the very start of all this) sufficient? Frankly, I feel you owe Giano an apology. athinaios 17:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo:
I think it is very rude to leave some comments unresponded to. I have seen a question on this page that remains unreplied to when it was posted over a year ago. And this is your own user page!!!
I am sorry if I seem rude myself.
Jake the Editor Man (talk) 19:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry, but I am a little confused. What question do you want me to answer?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, and sorry if this has been asked before, but: how many people will be elected to ArbCom as a result of these elections? The confusion is over the fact that 'Tranche Alpha' currently consists of five people, but also briefly included Essjay making six; from what I can tell, it's essentially your prerogative how many arbitrators are created, so what I'm asking is, what are your current intentions? Do you plan to make five people arbitrators, or six, or more; or will you only decide once you've seen what levels of support they've got? Thanks in advance. Terraxos (talk) 21:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
great job on everrything you've done with wikipedia. it's a gathering place of great minds. However, perhaps more (read: full, or nearly full) disclosure over issues such as those related to the recent press would help everyone keep a cool head? more public information should, if you're persuing things truthfully, show everyone that what your doing is correct and just. Aformalevent (talk) 01:41, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, of course. What do you want to know? Full disclosure of what? There is a huge ton of misinformation being thrown around, from the very notion that there was a "secret mailing list" to the further idea that the cyberstalking mailing list was or is premised on trying to seek out enemies of wikipedia. This is all complete and total nonsense.
The cyberstalking mailing list is a mailing list started by a handful of users on an ad hoc basis to discuss their own experiences with being cyberstalked, and to discuss the experiences of others being cyberstalked. Period. There is nothing wrong with that. The idea put forward by the Register that this constitutes some kind of sinister conspiracy is abject nonsense, which we should by now completely expect from them.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
hmmm... it seems that if the process of dealing with suspected malicious users was more open from the beginning this could have been avoided. Regardless, I'll be reading Wikipedia regularly, contributing a bit, and recommending it to my friends as I always have. Aformalevent (talk) 02:11, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I think an admin User:SebastianHelm has engaged on a very wasteful crusade that is nonproductive and just taking up the time of several users. He is making lots of accusations and calling his opinions "facts". Here is the link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Mediation_Cabal#MedCab_coordination_gone_wrong I think that he needs a reality check.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 04:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I want to report an error on Wikipedia: Perhaps it's just on my Computer, but sometimes when I put my mouse pointer on the area where there is the username of the user and link to it and the talk page link and all, it weirdely shifts to the left! And the other thing is I say the Wikipedia Intro page definetely needs Protection so only admins can edit as lot's of people vanderlise it and put ad's or usless info and such on it, and it's very effectful if it's an ad becuase almost every new user goes there. So please look into these two matters. Thank You very much!--Kushan I.A.K.J (talk) 11:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Hmmmmmmmmmmm........ well, the user toolbar problem seems to be over...--Kushan I.A.K.J (talk) 11:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Jimbo. I took a look at the bit on Giano's page that you thought was Giano calling Durova Hitler. It really is nothing like that. (I knew it couldn't be. It's a ludicrous suggestion, to anybody who knows Giano.) I hope whoever told you that that little lot had to do with Hitler was in good faith... If it was Durova herself, I don't doubt that she was, I don't figure her for a fan of British sitcoms. And maybe it's only in Europe that these sitcoms are famous and beloved.
Anyway, that dialogue is a mix of references to 'Allo 'Allo!, Dad's Army, Blackadder, and (the immortal) Fawlty Towers with John Cleese. You must have some fans of these series among your friends. Please show the dialogue to such a person. To somebody you trust. Show them the thread "About Durova's evidence" and to the end of the page here. Please. Bishonen | talk 22:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC).
Please see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Durova/Evidence#Evidence presented by Newyorkbrad. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm simply saddened and frustrated by the entire situation regarding Durova, !!, Giano, and the "private" mailing lists. I like Durova, but Giano is also well regarded in my books, not only as an excellent writer, but someone committed to the project, not bound by "groupthink". I feel like it's poisonous for me to even comment on the situation. The one comment I did make, regarding WP:COI edits was blanked along with an entire section on AN. [11] It's a waste of my time, I suppose to weigh in on matters. Also, I look at my deleted contributions and noticed that edits I made on SlimVirgin's talk page (regarding policy pages, where she is highly active) were deleted. I know there was a mass deletion on her pages (and highly regret and saddened by the harassment she has dealt with), but it's bothersome to me that my comments were deleted.
The mailing lists are also troublesome. What other private mailing lists are there? I like to assume good faith, but it's difficult at the moment to maintain trust in other admins who are on those lists. I just wonder if there is private discussion regarding policy, that I'm not privy too. I have found it very frustrating to engage SlimVirgin, Jossi, et al on policy talk pages. My suspicions are likely unfounded, but it just makes me very uncomfortable and find it difficult to create a welcoming, cordial editing atmosphere. At the moment, I am discouraged from editing and have not done much editing lately. (for multiple reasons) Maybe it would help if private lists were listed on Wikipedia:Mailing_lists. Obviously I can't be on arbcom-l, the oversight list, but at least aware they exist and accept them as legitimate. More transparency would be a good thing, to help dispell suspicions.
I have also felt very uncomfortable with how we have tolerated users who are not here to help the project. That has affected me, as well. However, I am concerned about the methods that Durova used to "identify" !!, that they were entirely inadequate. There are much better ways to get it right, when it comes to identifying sockpuppets. And, I think bringing cases before arbcom is a good idea (or having some official means, with legitimacy). There should be some due process. An ethical and fair means of dealing with sockpuppets is important for the community to maintain trust and faith in the project.
I'm not ready to give up on the project. Like Giano, I'll stick with it, but it's difficult to do article editing (and be positive about the project) with a cloud of suspicions hanging over the project. [for saying anything here, I may regret hitting the save button] --Aude (talk) 05:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad Bishonen raised this point here. (see "Our IRC conversation today: no references to Hitler" above) Too much is said behind the scenes that could be said here. This secretive discussion of editors by admins (and above) fuels the problems here. Let's have a more open and honest site. I think Jimbo instead of blaming everybody else in this matter. If you had instantly grasped the bull by the horns, and de-sysoped Durova immediately. This could all have been avoided. I cannot believe that you and those two dozen plus Arbs and checkusers on the list did not immediately check in your inboxes and begin emailing each other the second the shit hit the fan, which was a long time before I posted Durova's "evidence". Yet even after I posted it, and you had undoubtedly read it, you chose to threaten me rather than address the true matter. Is it any wonder people thought what the hell is going on?
My second point is to those who claim I did not need to post it, because others already had it. Why if others had it did they only act after I posted it on ANI? Either they did have it and were choosing to ignore it, of they did not have it until I posted it.
Finally. I advise editors against speaking to the press, let's air all our points openly and honestly and without fear on this site and deal with issues here. I am sick of seeing people being called Trolls etc. because they are trying to sort Wikipedia's problems this catcalling will only drive people to other off-site forums. Mistakes have been made, hopefully lessons learnt. Let's now move on now, the wiser for it. Giano (talk) 08:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
JzG is quick to block and quick to archive something that might help clear up much of what transpired when Durova was allowed to pursue her career as a sleuth. If things are left to discuss, then that is wonderful. If they are thrown under a rug, then it must go to the authorities. I am for open free speech. I think you are too. What do you think of quick blocks and quick deletions? Nice (talk) 22:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I never seen your pic till now, but I know people with beards chill hard. You should probably vote (or moo) for me.--EndlessDan 14:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to permenantly leave Wikipedia.
Can you please delete my accounts (Ricardo-Quaresma, and my two "sock-puppet" accounts JJGD and JJGD220, I have put '==JJGD==' on my user talk page to prove that they are my accounts)
Ricardo-Quaresma (talk) 18:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo,
Could you please include your two cents on this request for comment regarding a BLP. I would very much appreciate your thoughts and input on the subject.
Talk:Peter Yarrow#RfC: Conviction and pardon.
Thank you --Jkp212 (talk) 04:53, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I joined wiki this year, but really surprised to see privacy level here. I have some concerns and suggestions.
Especially in a shared ip address privacy is a big problem. Whenever someone is autoblocked it shows user who is blocked to everyone on that shared ip. Instead it should say only "you are autoblocked", not "you are blocked because of UserX", which is nothing but disclosing one's ip. Also unblock procedure for autoblock requires one to disclose their ip, all these are clear violation of policy. Sites by Google or Yahoo etc don't give up ip unless asked by court of law, not even to the police.
Another is checkuser log. My suggestion is that every month, a list of users(registered users only) who are checkusered should be released to public in alphabetical order, so that users will know if they are checkusered. This will be transparent without compromising with privacy.
This may be a non-commercial project, but strict copyright-policy and privacy-policy are essential to be called professional. Tabled sign (talk) 04:59, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
ich weiß es nicht, ob du mein posting gerne überliest oder was? ich brauche zu dem Thema eine Antwort. Du bist doch der Chef hier, oder etwa nicht? Ist es in Ordnung, dass die Nutzung von Bildern des Malers Jan Matejko in der deutschen Wikipedia verboten ist (siehe die Reverts), ist dieses Vorgehen Wikipedia konform? Ich brauche hierzu eine Stellungnahme!--Interrex (talk) 21:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
ich bin ein user in der deutschen wikipedia version. ich möchte dich in kenntnis setzen, dass es seit dieser woche in der deutschen wikipedia auf basis der [[13]] verboten ist Jan Matejko Bilder zu nutzen. Alle Jan Matejko Bilder wurden aus der deutschen Wikipedia entfernt (!), siehe z. B. hier [[14]] oder auch hier [[15]] Ist das ok? Warum ist die Nutzung von Jan Matjeko Bildern in der englischen, französischen, polnischen Wikipedia erlaubt, aber in der deutschen plötzlich verboten? Ich hatte hier [[16]] versucht einen Ausgelich zu finden, komme aber mit meiner Argumentation bedingt durch die Solidarisierung der Admins untereinander nicht mehr durch, hoffe dass du ein Machtwort sprechen kannst--Interrex (talk) 17:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't know whether you like to ignore my postings or what's the matter? I need an answer about the subject. You are the boss around here, aren't you? Is it ok, that the use of images of the painter Jan Matejko is forbidden on German Wikipedia (see reverts), is this course of action conform to Wikipedia? I need a statement about this!--Interrex (talk) 21:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I am a user of German Wikipedia. I want to inform you, that, since this week, on base of [[17]] it is forbidden, to use the pictures of Jan Matejko on German Wikipedia. All pictures from Jan Matejko were removed(!), for example, look here [[18]] or here [[19]]. Is this ok? Why is the use of pictures from Jan Matjeko permitted on English, French and Polish Wikipedia, but suddenly forbidden on German Wikipedia. Here [[20]] I tried to find a compromise, but, because of the solidarity among the admins, my arguments don't come through, hope that you can put your foot down--Interrex (talk) 17:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC) Translated by --Thw1309 (talk) 23:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC) (Do you know the feeling to be so "proud" about your fellow citizens)
HI Jimbo,
Do you have any thoughts on an issue like this (undue weight in a BLP) as a matter of principle? :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Frank_LaGrotta
Thanks, --Jkp212 04:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
It looks like a tough case. The version that I looked at quickly just now was certainly problematic, in that it cited only the negative accusation against this fellow, without mentioning his response. Until it all shakes out in court, at a bare minimum we need to withhold judgment. Surely one thing we might all learn from the Duke Lacrosse team case is that sometimes there are political prosecutions that don't pan out...
But additionally, I would join those who question the undue weight when this matter is overemphasized in the biography. The problem we have here is that the fellow in question is not particularly famous otherwise, and so there may be very little information about him in general. So what we have here could be viewed as a guy who is only notable for one incident, but that one incident does not give the reader a proper non-tabloid overview of his life.
My view here, and those who are following the case more carefully could easily persuade me otherwise, because I may not have all the facts needed to assess this particular case, is that the current removal of the negative information from the biography is a bit overstrong, but acceptable as a temporary measure. If it is reincorporated, it needs to be firmly balanced with a fair presentation of his own side of the story.
I think the most important thing for people to realize in cases like this (and it looks like there has been general calm and reasoned discussion here, which makes me very happy) is that there is plenty of time. It's ok for Wikipedia to be incomplete for a while. It may take time for editors to gather more information and be able to write a proper biography, and in the meantime, there is no need to rush to judgment.--Jimbo Wales 06:47, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
hi there- I read that you were strongly influenced by Objectivism in your youth. Could you tell me what you think of objectivism today? What do you think of "the rabid atheism" of Ayn Rand? What do you think of the current article on Objectivism?--Keerllston 12:30, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Still strongly influenced. I haven't read our current article, but you have awakened my curiosity and perhaps I will find the time soon...--Jimbo Wales 17:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I would appreciate it greatly if you did so, perhaps writing an "official review" on that article and on the article on what I believe is the main work of objectivism - Atlas Shrugged.If you are truly interested I'm sure wikipedians would like your input and would like to know what you consider to be quality.--Keerllston 00:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
This new article in the Register [21] also contains comments from me that I stand by. I invite you to discuss them with me, either here or by email. Your choice. Cla68 (talk) 00:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I have emailed you at the yahoo address I have for you.--Jimbo Wales 19:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
You might want to take a look at D. James Kennedy regarding a group of editors who are insisting on keeping unverified (and challanged for a few months via the {{fact}} tag) in the article in contradiction to WP:Verifiability. Thanks for your time and interest. Swarm Internationale (talk) 14:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Dear Jimbo,
I don't know where else to post to get a relatively "official" position on the relationship between Veropedia and Wikipedia. I'd like to start with the "facts", if you will:
In trying to understand how this is an appropriate use of Wikipedia, I have so far posted twice on User:Danny's talk page, and I have received a few responses from related parties, which stress that Veropedia will give back to Wikipedia, and that the two organizations have compatible goals. Nobody has yet addressed my question as to the ethicality of this relationship: I am concerned that this for-profit organization is attempting to embed itself here as a casual, informal extension of Wikipedia; that it will gain through the obviously valuable halo effect that it will receive from Wikipedia links and activities; and that this, in the view of society's consensus views on profit/non-profit business ethics is, indeed, unethical. Compare any other GFDL-compliant "mirror": none of them receive this benefit. Thus, to be clear, the re-use of open content is not the issue at all; the issue is that Wikipedia appears to be the ground for the sowing of a for-profit organization's seeds. What other organization has ever been permitted this (spam attempts notwithstanding)?
Your talk page is a busy place, and I wish to state that I am not a trollish editor flying by to create a fuss. I have contributed to the wiki positively for some time and have about 9000 edits. I am not writing because I am "anti-mirror" or have had some bothersome realization about GFDL licensing—such ideas simply distort the key issue I'm raising. Further, I have had no prior dealings with Veropedia or its owner, and have no reason to spend my time examining this issue other than its ethical bearing on whether I can in good conscience continue to contribute here.
Thus, I am here to ask, in earnest, if the Foundation considers this an issue worth examining, or has it already accepted this promotional activity? Of course, Veropedia's activities here are nascent. If the current amount of Veropedia cross-pollination is OK, how much Veropedia promotion would have to be in place, scattered about Wikipedia, before it became a concern? Has Wikimedia considered that the organization appears to be affiliated with Veropedia, or "not at arm's length", because of Veropedia's similarities, because of its presence on Wikipedia, and because its owner is a former Foundation employee? I hope you would agree that now is the time to clearly state—for the benefit of Wikipedia's volunteers and for proactivity in public relations—what is the official position on for-profit website promotion on Wikipedia. If this promotional activity is permitted, it's good to know. I have an Amazon.com affiliate account that I may start linking to on-site—it too will benefit Wikipedia, because I plan to send 40% of the proceeds to the Foundation, and I'll sponsor some contests too.
My apologies if this issue has been formally discussed elsewhere; I haven't seen anything. Thank you for your time. –Outriggr § 22:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
E kala mai. ;-) --Ali'i 14:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
"'I believe that Jimbo's credibility has been greatly damaged because of his open support for these people,' says Charles Ainsworth."
Open support for which people?
--Jimbo Wales 14:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Being familiar with the stalking and trolling that eminates from Wikipedia Review, I must say that I am certainly sympathetic to the creation of a private discussion board to counter-act it. That said, I am deeply concerned that we are allowing paranoia to take over the upper echelons of the Wikipedia Community. Some of the arguments I have seen concerning BADSITES and related matters coming from respected, established admins (and even ArbCom members) are honestly quite unbelievable. And now this. Frankly, it seems that Giano called a spade a spade and was punished becuase of it. The fact that the establishment (including Jimbo) came down on him so harshly unfortunately leaves egg on the face of the entire Wikipedia project. Of course what's done is done, and it seems most everyone is in agreement that the whole thing was an over-reaction and blown out of proportion. The only thing we can do now is ask how do we keep this rampant paranoia from getting out of hand? Clearly much of it is justified, but that doesn't change the fact that it is hurting Wikipedia. Kaldari (talk) 03:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Harassment can be serious business; real-life stalking always is. While I support the idea of Wikipedia developing an official program for victims of Wikipedia-related harassment and cyberstalking (which I can attest personally does occur), I am concerned that Wikipedia needs to know its limits in this matter. Some sympathy and practical assistance is at the top of the list. Consideration needs to be given to whether or not the Foundation will release the collected information on the alleged harasser/stalker to police at the request of the victim; as the policy is a Foundation one, there may be value in discussing a comprehensive response process with other projects.
I will also add that I am somewhat concerned that, while the members of this group include individuals who have experienced stalking and real-life harassment, it is unlikely that any of them have any training in the skills required to assist victims most effectively. Support groups are good, but they are usually led by professionals or at minimum well trained volunteers. Risker (talk) 03:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Clarification Since Cla has said that I "pointed out" SlimVirgin was lying, I'd like to be clear. I did not, and do not, accuse anyone of lying, and I rather resent being misrepresented. Slim made accusations about arbcom members leaking. I have no idea whether they are true or not. My comlaint, which Slim has graciously accepted, is that she should not have publicly implied that JamesF leaked, and that she disbelieved his assurances, without providing evidence. She should have discussed the matter privately with James and if dissatisfied gone to Jimbo, Arbcom, of the foundation. People should not make unsubstantiated allegation. And people should not accuse others of lying, or of calling people liars. Some of my own talk has been careless and open to misunderstanding, and for that I apologise to all parties. But, again, I have no reason to believe that Slim is lying.--Docg 09:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
calling Giano, a widely respected if often difficult editor, a "rogue editor" is nonsense. No more nonsensical than calling him a troll [31] . Here's another recent example of this troll at work [32].--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 12:55, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Although I tend to consider Durova's email more ill-considered than Mr Wales seems to consider it (which does not mean I feel there should be any greater consequences for Durova than have already unfolded), I feel compelled to write that I believe all of Jimbo's recent actions are entirely admirable, thoughtful, and wise. There is no doubt in my mind that the role he is playing is the right one, and that attempts to remove or curb that role will not benefit Wikipedia. In my opinion it is quite remarkable that there is somebody so judicious at the head of this project, and I hope that he intends to continue playing the role that he does at present. If anything, that role should be expanded, and his wish to protect living people from their biographical entries enforced more tightly. Thanks Jimbo. BCST2001 (talk) 23:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
The decisions I was referring to were those which Jimbo mentioned here. In relation to Giano, I feel your comments are, again, rather hyperbolic. The essence of any "decision" Jimbo took about Giano would seem to be to take no action. And, again, a good decision. BCST2001 (talk) 10:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
This there any way to put two images into one because Collectonian is always bugging me about only one image deserve to be on one article and not two, three, or four images. I think Collectonian is going to far about this image issue. Can you please help me because I am getting very upset about this issue and I want to finish it. Bye.--Stco23 (talk) 20:02, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo, I have been a user for 2 years now and Collectonian put something on the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents page about me and is there a way to say something bad about someone and then change your mind by saying something else on wikipedia or can I put that and have to say the right thing instead. I am different for everyone else and you can see that in my user page. I think she doesn't like the way I act. I was uncivil to her a couple of times before because I tried to be nice, but she only ends up ruining it and I get upset. I put two images into one to make her happy, but she still reported me about my conduct. Is there any other way to talk to her or do I have to leave her alone. I know the rules now about images because I got blocked at one time for harassing people and I looked up the rules to find out. I don't think I can become an adminstor now because I got blocked before. I don't want to be blocked again. I do think that some of the things she does is wrong, but I don't know if you think they are right or not. I am trying to be a good editor, but I don't think I can be. I know this a encyclopia site and not a site that you can put many images on one article. I think it would be best if I backed off wikipedia for a while and just look at articles and not edit them. I try my best, but I don't think my best is good enough. Should I quit or should I still edit on wikipedia. Please let me know on my talk page. Thank You.--Stco23 (talk) 21:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
It's ashame I missed you in London (only heard about it when I read the media report). I would like to comment/ask you about your point that teachers/lecturers should allow pupils/students cite Wikipedia. During the time you didn't support the idea, I did. Now, I don't. This has nothing to do with me thinking the opposite of what you do, rather with me understanding more of the Wikipedia nature and policy. Of course, in the past I have used -as most students do- Wikipedia for essay writing and general studies related research. However, I have never cited it. Instead, I use Wikipedia as a starting point, as it introduces the subject at hand in a manner that is easy to understand and because of current policy, Wikipedia offers enough sources that will allow me to verify the fact and read more in depth. Do you not believe that citing Wikipedia would just be making life easy for lazy students who either don't follow the links or don't want to find the sourced book in the library? And any thing that isn't sourced on Wikipedia, we must admit, should not be trusted when it is academically important to anybody. Edit: I read your above comments and agree.
Further, are you considering making a verified version of Wikipedia? Would it not be a good idea to fork Wikipedia into a stable version instead of letting other independent and often commercial products do this? I believe this would - considering the amount of people involved here at the moment - a relatively simple task.
I hope to hear from you -and others- on my comment soon, all the best,Poeloq (talk) 02:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi! As I didn'T find the appropriate section neither in the German nro the English section of Wikipedia.org though it is a topic that should be decided quickly, I just summon up some key facts about what happened. The admin broke rules. The admin used an arrogant, inappropriate reasoning for deleting parts of an article. The admin was involed in deleting these parts and protecting the page in a changed status. The cause for changing the article was not only a legal threat, but actually an user who comlained about the article and additionally filed an action very fast. The admin, though he addressed an user in an answer on the discussion-page of that article as the complainant, didn'T block or delete that user as far as I know. That entry which was answered by the admin did neither have an IP-adress or the user name: Unusual for my knowledge is, that even in the old versions of the discussion-page no IP-adress or user-name could be found, but only in the history-overview the user was to be seen. In the contributions-page of that user that entry could then be found. The admin twice deleted entries of the discussion-page, that I had written as answers to entries from this admin(!), though they were neither intended nor unintended insulting. (That deletion of my entries to the discussion page is what really bothers me, followed by the next point.) After the second deletion the admin blocked my IP-address. As reason for blocking he stated that I would have written that I "don't want to write anymore" on wikipedia: This citation is a lie! I *never* wrote *that*! The blocking must not have been done by that admin as he was involved in the discussion: From an old desysop-decision I know that this alone is enough of a reason to desysop that admin. (If I remember right it was even you yourself who wrote, that such in inaceptable.)
My question: How could I help you and wikipedia to prevent this admin of further breaking and bending the wikipedia rules? Please answer here!
With best regards 212.23.103.75 (talk) 22:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello again! After I informed the admin that I will initiate an Arbitration to Desysop him, he removed that entry and the second entry that he deleted and I put back again. That way of course it will be more difficult to find more people who were blocked by him and/or pointed out how and when he broke rules alone on that discussion page and the related article. After that within only hours he moved links on his userpage that pointed to former complaints against him to him being desysoped from top of his page to a not so prominent place. Actually maybe because only of that moving of the links I only have become aware of that links. (So that really backfire. I now know by these same links where to find the right page on the German wikipedia-section, to start a movment to desysop him.) These arbitrations were caused by rule-breaking blocks performed by the admin. One complainant said: 'This admin is known to use his admin-privileges to try to make other users who are in discussion with *him* "mundtot"'. (mundtot: to silence) The admin on the same page wrote, he deliberatly considered that his actions could result in him being desysoped, but he would do it again in the same situation. As you maybe know, the situation in the German section of wikipedia is far worse regarding the cameraderia of the admins, supporting each other whatever topic and action is discussed or decided. After seeing the old movements to desysop him, and now seeing him rule-breaking by blocking and deleting entries on discussion pages, I really wonder if you, Mr Wales, really could stood by watching. With best regard, and still hoping for an answer from you 212.23.103.85 (talk) 19:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello again! I could understand that you don't want to comment on a topic that is in any way related to the filed suit i mentioned above. But why don'T you show interest that it seems the user who filed the suit was not banned or blocked? With best regards 212.23.103.5 (talk) 17:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
When I discovered Wikipedia a few years ago, I almost immediately become enthralled. I got so into it after a while that I decided to "be bold" and contribute.
Over the course of the past year I've become rather discouraged as I've discovered that just like any big corporation, Wikipedia has it's share of "bigwig Pinheads" as well.
Common sense is thrown out the window here far to often.
Unless you happen to "have the right connections", then being a Wikipeian can't amount to much more than correcting spelling errors and punctuation.
Start a new article on what common sense dictates should, be a "notable" subject and the wikiclique will deem it "not notable" (while not applying the same standards to other similar articles). I guess it's about who you know. :(
After that, your optons are arbitration. And you know what? Most people have better things to do with their lives than jump through (what seem to any rational person to be) needlessly unnecessary "hoops" to get anything corrected here.
And if all this weren't bad enough, I come across this and this today.
What is wrong with this place? I thought Wikipedia was supposed to be "open"? --angrykeyboarder (a/k/a:Scott) (talk) 01:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Sure, the item has been on my watchlist for some time and the article has been under my attention since the AN/I thread and subsecuent protection. I am under the impression that this situation may be related to the creation of a new version of Menudo, maybe as some kind of negative propaganda towards the group since the page's webmaster has claimed that he promoted the original version of the group once in his now deleted article. - Caribbean~H.Q. 17:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I think it is something in that general area. The former participants in that battle all apparently have some kind of legal dispute with each other. In any event, none of them should be editing the articles in question, that's for sure.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Dear Jimbo, I can use the layout of its profile in this Wikipedia to place it in my page of profile of user of the Wikipedia in Portuguese, of which I am part? Forgives me the bad translation.. :) ONE I hug. I wait its reply,
FERNANDO —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.171.182.247 (talk) 20:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo, your User page says "Wikia is a completely separate organization." But there's a page on Wikia that says "Wikia, Inc. and The Wikimedia Foundation are independent companies, though there are some relationships between them, as described below." Is your definition of the word "completely" flexible in some way? If so, please elaborate. -- ZD Netman (talk) 04:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Got no time to do this myself, but one of Jimbo's edits to the talk page seems to have inadvertantly erased someone else's edits. [34] Can someone bring them back? — Ravikiran (talk)` —Preceding comment was added at 13:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I have no clue whether or not I'm stepping into a landmine here...
I'm a brand new admin and in trying to clean up pages that have been "semi" protected, I ran across Jeff V. Merkey. From what I can tell, there seem to have been several bouts of COI, BLP, harassment, etc around the article. But most if not all of that seems to have happened last year (late 2006), so I was wondering if the page should still be protected, or if it can be unprotected. Since you protected it back in Oct. 2006, I bring it to you to decide :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I would recommend keeping it semi-protected for now. It could be unprotected at some point in the future.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I am Marianian, a user of one of the Wikimedia projects, NSWiki. It is nice to see you on somewhat a very chilly day here in Britain. How are you doing today?
See you later,
--Marianian (talk) 19:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I can understand the need to use a fundraising header from time to time; but I can not understand why it can not be created in such a way as to display properly on pages that use the coordiates template in en.Wikipedia. I realize that the problem is the absolute location of the coordinate entry, but why no one with the power to do something about it is willing to invested in the programing costs to fix the problem escapes me. The following page is a good example of the problem which displays differently dependant upon that status of the fund raising header (hidden or fully displayed) both create problems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Joseph%27s_Catholic_School_%28Hamilton%2C_New_Zealand%29# Note: the smaller the window the worse the problem becomes.
Also see the discussion related to the issue in greater detail at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29#Problem_with_the_position_of_coordinates_with_fund_raising_header
Also posted at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fundraising_2007/Archive2#Conflict_with_fundrasing_header_and_coordinates
These document some of my attempts to address the problem over the past 40 days
Would you be willing to forward this to someone with the tallent to fix the problem? Dbiel (Talk) 04:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, Jimbo. I had to spill the beans. People have been hounding me for The Great Secret. Please change the password. I've been operating your sockpuppet long enough. The full confession is here. DurovaCharge! 08:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I've edited WP for a while, and I've noticed that small, dedicated groups of editors can control large groups of less dedicated editors. Is this how it should be? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 11:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
In general, it is a good thing, yes. In cases where the small, dedicated group is a group of serious Wikipedians who care about quality and neutrality, it is a great thing indeed.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” – Mark Twain
Jimbo & Wikipedians:
You inhabit one reality. I will posit an alternative reality.
Imagine a world where a massive financial crime is ruining our market. Imagine that the past head of the SEC, various economists and finance professors, journalists at financial publications such as Bloomberg, and now even the current head of the SEC, have confirmed that this problem is real.
Imagine also that the crooks perpetrating the crime have a shill whom they unleash upon Wikipedia to doctor certain pages to reflect only half-truths and negatives to keep the cover-up in place, to run an attack site smearing anyone who tries to reveal the truth.
Into this world steps Judd Bagley who, through technical knowledge and patience, discovers how they are running the cover-up. He posts his results to Wikipedia, but his posts are expunged and he is banned. He posts them on his own site, but any discussion of his site (even its name) become a Wikipedian thought-crime under the Orwellian moniker of "attack site." Ironically, they accuse him of running a smear campaign, apparently hoping that none will check for themselves and see he has written well-documented exposes of their smear campaigns.
In addition, imagine that an investigative journalist gets interested, reviews the evidence, and writes a story connecting the dots. His story gets expunged within Wikipedia, the publication for which he writes (TheRegister.com) gets banned, and all concerned pages are locked down so no evidence of these other points of view exist. Does this sound like people committed to free discourse in a market-place of ideas ruled by "the wisdom of crowds"? Does it sound like "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit"? Or does it sound like North Korea?
I respectfully assert, Wikipedians, that your entire worldview is as distorted as those of North Koreans who are never exposed to an idea that contradicts the opinion of Great Leader. You are living in The Matrix, and your reality on the subjects of naked shorting, Overstock, and myself, is fabricated and manipulated by just such arrangements.
You will scoff, I know. One will write more “Patrick Byrne is so nuts” blogs. Perhaps he will add quotes from those blogs to his Wiki-page here (citing his blogs as evidence), and then friends of his will quote it in their stories, then he will cite them, and so on and so forth in a self-referential cover-up. While those pages remain locked under the control of people who stand accused, you Wikipedians cannot tell which reality you inhabit, and you lose your right to count yourselves among those committed to free thought. In addition, if he remains unwilling to let subjects in which he has personal interest be discussed by the same set of rules by which other Wikipedia articles exist, Jim Wales will be a hypocrite. In fact, I challenge Jim Wales to expose the following two statements to the normal Wikipedia processes, and if he will not, then he should abandon all his claims about the virtues of Wikipedia:
a) JzG and Samiharris cannot produce evidence for the claims they make about Judd. Repeating a lie many times does not make it true.
b) Jim claims that “Overstock launched an ‘attack site’ against Weiss..." This is false.
Jim, you always sounded so confident about Wikipedia’s virtues, until now.
Respectfully submitted, Patrick M. Byrne CEO, Overstock.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.166.120.86 (talk) 04:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Fastlizard: the mechanisms that generate reliability are absent while those pages remain under the control of a few. All that they are then is an exercise in mass mind control. "'And as for 'alternate reality', why does it apply to us if it isn't going to happen?" Because maybe it already has and you don't see it yet. PatrickByrne (talk) 05:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I am futher convivced that you are not the CEO of Overstock. The data indicates that you are operating out of a AT&T/Comcast DSL/Cable proxy server, not a corporate proxy, which an exec would probably have in most cases. However, data seems to indicate that the data is coming from Utah, which is the only supportative evidence on your behalf. However, that can be ruled out since you are operating from a dynamic IP, which could just mean that the server broadcasting your IP is in Utah. --FastLizard4 (Talk•Index•Sign) 06:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
First, on whether this is or is not Patrick Byrne: yes I could enter through a corporate IP, but since those are blocked, as is discussed in TheRegister.co.uk's article "Wikipedia's Black Helicopters Circle Utah's Traverse Mountain" (which I hope is not a thought-crime to mention), I chose not to enter from a corporate IP.
Second, "He's blamed sinister cabals, Wall Street journalists, Wikipedia and MI5, but never himself" is just part of the clogging that forms the cover-up. In fact, I have repeatedly taken responsibility for any and all operating mishaps at Overstock. I also want to talk about a major financial crime that I believe is harming America, and when I do, the knee-jerk response is, "Byrne's just blaming" blah blah blah. Let me reverse it: now that Overstock is back generating pretty good cash flow again, does that make me right about the subjects of naked shorting, regulatory and journalistic capture, and systemic risk? Because when we were losing money some folks were sure insistent it made me wrong about these subjects.
Third, Fastlizard says that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Agreed. I can post the evidence here, but it will all be deleted immediately. So I'll just post the places where you can read it and decide for yourself. If I do so, and those citations are deleted, then I think you will concede my point: you cannot simultaneously call for citations, and then delete any citations that I adduce as being "attack sites" or otherwise Haraam. I provide them at the end of this post.
Fourth, Jimbo asks, "Are you claiming, for example, that although Bagley created the attack site, he did so on his own, not as part of his job at Overstock?" To which I respond: It was definitely not "part of his job at Overstock" (in fact, I did not know about it until later, or that he was behind it, until even later), and moreover, it is not an "attack site," it is a site which documents abuses within Wikipedia which are expunged from the record other Wikipedians are allowed to consider.
Fifth, you folks have devoted a lot of time and attention to the discussion of how awful Judd Bagley (WordBomb) is, and given that, how this and that must be forbidden, and how someone posted something that read like WordBomb may have written it so they must be banned, and so on and so forth. In all that discussion of how bad Judd Bagley is and all that flows from it, there is precisely one person excluded from the conversation, and that is, Judd Bagley. He is the Goldstein in your 1984.
Here are citations for places where you can explore the fact that you are inhabiting a hermetically-sealed self-referential alternate reality: TheRegister.co.uk's"Wikipedia Black Helicopters Circle Utah's Traverse Mountain" and Antisocialmedia.net. PatrickByrne (talk) 15:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Unless, of course, TheRegister publishes a story that supports the Party Line, or Gary writes a blog that can then cited as the source for Gary's page, right? No one here seems too fastidious in those cases. It is only when the Party Line is offended that such rules are invoked, apparently. PatrickByrne (talk) 01:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
For that matter, there's an even larger problem in that Wikipedia's zeal against things which would "disrupt it" have outlawed (via POINT and WP:SOCK) all experimentation to discover how it works sociologically-- that is, to discover its biases with any kind of prospective test like the one just mentioned. Which, as you know, is the only sure way to find out how anything REALLY works (as opposed to how it's supposed to work, or how everybody thinks it works as a matter of personal opinion). That's not good, for it leaves us forever in the dark as to what biases exist, except as we guess about them epidemiologically. Even medicine performs controlled prospective trials with ill patients, and Wikipedia is not in the most perfect health imaginable. Any "disruption" in experimentation to find out Wikipedia's biases, should repay itself many times over, in smoother and less biased function down the line. SBHarris 19:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
"This is what Mr. Bryne does: along with Mr. O'Brien, he bullies and taunts and goads the small handful of reporters who dare to write about Overstock, making it clear that there will be a price to be paid for tackling the company or its chief executive. And as a result, financial reporters have become very chary of taking him on." [36]/
The Register named me in two stories, including the one mentioned here, without ever attempting to contact me and check the facts. DurovaCharge! 19:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Maybe he just read your emails. PatrickByrne (talk) 01:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
http://www.smh.com.au/news/web/gitmo-troops-vandalise-wikipedia/2007/12/13/1197135602444.html
A government like that of the U.S. will defend itself against a “Lord of the flies” type wiki environment where and when innocent citizens fall victim to a group of kids that can make up their own version of the truth, at will. The WMF may be in for a rude awakening in the not too distant future, albeit it will not happen soon enough to help many people that have already been hurt by this nonsense. I suspect laws will change and privacy issues will be flying in the face of every one of the administrators herein. The age issue will also be a trump card that the government will use to act against WP. It will not be games as usual and “free speech will bow to laws. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.163.255.152 (talk) 03:03, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I am not sure if this is something that you will have any interest in addressing, but I figured that I would run it by you anyway just in case. There where two discussions at about the same time on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability concerning WP:V Exceptional claims require exceptional sources, and a second conversation that touched upon consensus.
Often times “…there is not a clear line between reliability and questionability…” concerning sources, especially when the material being discuses is controversial, and editors are left to use their best judgment. I had proposed the following sentence be added to the Exceptional claims section:
Such claims may only be included when there is a consensus amongst editors that the sources cited are reliable for the claims made.
This following well founded argument was given: “too easy to circumvent NPOV with this too: a single editor declaring a source "unreliable for the claims made" (with or without giving a foundation for his/her declaration) leads to a no-consensus situation that would exclude the material from the encyclopedia. Of course consensus is the best way, but lack of consensus on the sources should not be used as an excuse to delete, nor, of course, as warranty for inclusion.” [40]
The inclusion argument goes something like this:
If someone removes questionable material that supports your side of an argument, an effective means of maintaining that material against policy or the opinions of other editors is to revert, and add an edit summery stating “rv deletion of text without consensus” or similar. This gives the outward appearance of being civil while at the same time maintaining material that you know or should know is not supported by policy.
This argument was made by one editor: “…there was not "consensus" to delete, as WP:CON describes it…”
To which I replied: “There was not consensus to delete.” I might point out that you have inverted consensus here, there is no such thing as consensus to remove questionable material, simply a lack of consensus to retain it. Anyone restoring questionable material on the claim that there is “a lack of consensus to remove” is being disingenuous."
So here is the problem, Consensus is written in such a way that agreement amongst all the editors involved is implied. “Consensus does not mean that everyone agrees with the outcome; instead, it means that everyone agrees to abide by the outcome.” Commonsense would seem to indicate that if 10 editors where involved in an effort to reach consensus on a controversial topic, the best anyone could hope for would be that six or seven would agree, two or three would still disagree but abide by the will of the majority, and that with luck no more than one would stick firmly to their position come hell or high-water. So at best your breakdown would be 7/2/1; the one alone throwing any hope of reaching a consensus beyond reach. I would have to say that having multiple editors agree on any subject is a challenge, and on controversial subjects it is unrealistic. If you compare this to a civil trial, unlike a criminal trial, there are few jurisdictions that would require unanimous consent of all jurors before returning a verdict. And that’s based upon “preponderance of the evidence”, one side's case must simply be considered more provable than the other's. Or again drawing upon the judicial system; how often do the 9 Justices of the Supreme Court reach unanimous agreement? If they can not, why should there be any hope for the rest of us?
I would say that 7/10 agreement is sufficient meet consensus and move forward. But as I look through CON, and what others have written concerning CON, I would say that WP seems to be shooting for 10/10. The higher the requirement for agreement, the easier it is to block material that is contrary to your POV, or block the removal of material that is contrary to your POV; thus the higher that the bar is set for CON, the easier it is to undermine NPOV. I wonder if CON is not written so tightly that it has become in some ways self-defeating. On the other hand I am not sure how you write 7/10ths into policy (my figure, 7/10 could just as easily be 2/3 or 6/10, or even 51/49 -but hopefully not that low.) And maybe I will read CON again tomorrow and wonder why I wrote this;) Thanks, Brimba (talk) 06:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
This site has alot of comments by readers regards this controversy WikiRevew in Menudo Scandal
I found this quote regards this Menudo mess on a message board and it makes some sense people comment below :
"Well, for all of you people who still think that there are still articles on WP which can be edited without WWIII taking place, I present for your examination : Menudo (band).
On the talk page, it seems that the nexus of conflict is an alleged "Menudo drugs and gay sex" scandal which was covered in tabloids about seventeen years ago. The usual argument about WP:RS, WP:COI and WP:POINT has raged for the past few days and yesterday, the GodKing took the bull by the horns and issued an edict of article banning to the two editors who seem to be at the center of this, alleging that one of them owned a pseudo-"official" fansite which was pushing a certain POV agenda, but said POV agenda includes sources in reputable newspapers (NYTimes, Miami Herald, the NY Daily News), Police reports, official bankruptcy reports, Department of justice letters. This person certainly seems to have documented all of this and it certainly doesn't look like original research.
Now, what I find interesting is this:
QUOTE Admins are recommended to be quite firm about not letting the two sides of this fight carry on their fight within Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not the place for external fights to be re-enacted. We are writing an encyclopedia. This is our project, not a free speech zone for people to engage in public spats.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Now, it would seem to me that WP:RS has more than been covered here and this just amounts to censorship to avoid legal problems for WP, since probably there's a record co. exec. who is threatening to sue them even if it's all true (that's SOP in the Pop music biz...).
But given current events, don't you think that it would be more...um....cost-effective to solve others large-scale site issues rather than putting out these small fires by spouting policy issues which are not enforced elsewhere?
I guess that Jimbo can't just send in the Durova/SV Bucket brigade anymore to clean things up..."
--66.229.248.172 (talk) 17:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits. The next time you vandalize Wikipedia, you will be blocked from editing. Michaelbusch (talk) 23:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
--66.229.248.172 (talk) 23:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I apologize for 66.239.248.172's posting here. This editor has a history of disruptive talk page posts, and has been blocked twice before. I suspect that this page gets an astronomical number of spurious posts, but I would prefer that the number say as low as possible. Michaelbusch (talk) 23:20, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Section deleted under WP:VANISH
Hi Jimbo. Pleas take a look at this.
On 6 December, User:EVula blocked User:Goodshoped35110s without warning or evidence and proceeded to vote canvass his unblock discussion. Is this not a violation of admin guidelines? Sure, Goodshoped was a little blunt with his username warnings, but let the record show that all of his edits have been in good faith. As far as I see, this was uncalled for and deserves immediate attention. --Gp75motorsports (talk) 23:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
COGden has filed an ArbCom case concerning WP:NOR here. I am letting you know because the heart of his complaint is this:
(By the way, I happen not to agree with the reference to "historigraphy," I am not at all sure why GOGden thinks this. An alternate account of the history of the policy - which I drafted, and which was commented on for about a week before there was consensus to add it to the article, is here: Wikipedia:No original research/history)
The reason I call this to your attention is that some people could construe COGden's argument to be that only you dictate Wikipedia policy, or that any change to Wikipedia must have your consent.
Anyway, he brought your name into the argument, so I thought you should know if you aren't already aware, Slrubenstein | Talk 15:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I am really sorry if i dont know what im doing here and i dont... but you guys should have a forums (if you do plz give me the url) but i mean if you guys are too busy, i could make it as long as you finance the forums... It would also keep vandalism down... the main reason there is vandalism is because people are bored and have nothing to do... so plz check this out.. im also going to make this a help topic under my talk... so thanks for the help and WIKI ROCKS
--Mr kc (talk) 15:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
[41] called "Wiki-government". It mentions Wikipedia among other sites to promote the idea that "laity" can really participate directly in making decsions without utter chaos. Seems like an intersting article. Any thoughts?Thelmadatter (talk) 15:48, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Copied back from Archive 30 I think that this is an important enough topic to at least deserve a reply before being archived into a hidden archive file. - I created entries to archive 29 and 30 during my search to find this post. Whoever is maintaining this page is doing a very poor job.
Und wieder wurde eine klassische österreichiche Speise von Deutschen gelöscht, irgendwann ist Schluss, wir pfeifen in Österreich auf die Deutsche Wikipedia jetzt gibt es eine Aktion gegen Wikipedia. Das ist kein Scherz. Es geht nicht nur um Fleischknödel, sondern um österreichische Artikel im allgemein, wir lassen uns das von den Deutschen und dir nicht länger gefallen. Es reicht! Du wist noch von uns in den Medien hören, jetzt ist Schluss mit lustig, und Geld willst du auch aus Österreich? Wikipedia ist einfach nur peinlich, lächerlich und falsch! Du hast jetzt Feinde in Österreich, also besuche es nie wieder! --212.183.42.226 (talk) 02:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo, please be careful about how you handle issues. For example, the secret mailing lists. Many are worried that the secret mailing list will be abused. Just like how Giano and others get blocked because of discussions on IRC and !! get blocked because of Durova's secret evidence. Don't just say their worries are "nonsense". Check that there is no abuse of the secret mailing list. At least if there is no abuse, you can tell them "I checked and there is no abuse".
It is bad that many Wikipedians worry about this, even if their worries are "nonsense". Because of this, they lose faith in Wikipedia. They also lose faith in ArbCom. You can see the ArbCom elections this year and compare the support percent with last year. Last year at least 6 candidates have at least 80% support, this year only 2 candidates.
Remember when you said about Essjay, "I regard it as a pseudonym and I don’t really have a problem with it." That comment made a lot of people who don't know much about Wikipedia think that you let people lie about their degrees. Wikipedians also lose faith in you and Wikipedia. Then when somebody wrote on Slashdot that SlimVirgin is a spy, and you wrote there "Slashdot, you have been trolled." You should read the angry replies by others. They also said that Jayjg used Checkuser to hide info about SlimVirgin. Did you check whether what they say is true? At least if you check, and if it is nonsense, you can tell everyone "I checked and Jayjg did not do anything wrong". Of course, if it is true that SlimVirgin is a spy or Jayjg used Checkuser to hide info, then you can ban them to stop them from doing more damage to Wikipedia.
You must also be careful about comments and decisions you make as the leader of Wikipedia. Zoe and Jaranda left Wikipedia because your comments offend them. When you make sudden decisions, Wikipedians may think you abuse your power or don't care about their views. Cedars left Wikipedia because of one of your sudden decisions. Last week, you called Giano, who writes a lot of FAs, a troll. Those who write a lot of GAs and FAs are the best and most important Wikipedians and you cannot just drive them away like that.
Of course you are a good leader and that is why Wikipedia is one of the biggest websites in the world. But criticism helps you improve.
--Kaypoh (talk) 14:02, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2004 says that the results were:
WAS 4.250 (talk) 20:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh, goodness. I had forgotten that. That was under the old system, which I had completely forgotten. Under the new system, people are not eligible to be elected unless they get 50% support. I apologize for the error.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Here is the thread. Cla I am one of those people (people with concerns) you mention, as you can see from my post in that thread, but I didn't pursue the issue in a way that IMO could possibly be disruptive to an already disrupted page and community. —Cronholm144 00:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Folks, I don't want to discourage you too much, but the information content in the crisis-management algorithm used by Jimbo could be replaced by a shell script. A small shell script. You're about to see a command performance in the latest scandal. It's laudable to raise your concerns about the lack of openness and transparency. But you have essentially zero ability to affect it. If you leave, you will simply be replaced. I often get flack for being critical of Wikipedia. The sort of disempowerment demonstrated in this thread is one of the reasons for my views. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 05:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Get professional PR help. The responses thus far do not inspire confidence. Don't flame Seth. He's doing a great service to Wikipedia by pointing these things out while you still have time to do something about them. - Jehochman Talk 18:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
For the curious people. This topic was about "Fleischknödel", see deletion candidates (in German of course ;-): [45]. The article was "unterirdisch schlecht" and thus was deleted... I love people that can't even name they topic they are complaining about. ;-) Arnomane (talk) 03:28, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I assume you've already heard about this, but thought I'd post it just in case [46]. Joshdboz (talk) 02:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand, I do not think this is really a problem for Jimbo to have to explain. I believe this is the problem of the WMF Board of Directors, who are directly responsible for hiring staff and maintaining fiduciary control of the Foundation's finances. Risker (talk) 05:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what "COO" means, but the post seems at least moderately important. And a fair number of people around here seem to think that WMF is at least moderately important. Thus the idea that a COO of WMF is worth an article isn't obviously unreasonable to me, though I can't get worked up about it. Anybody interested in her articleworthiness can read a rapid discussion of this matter (or a closely related one) here. A lot of sensible stuff seems to be said within it, though I find the rather feverish tone (or so it appears) rather surprising. -- Hoary (talk) 09:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
LOL, chaps. This is all completely true. The woman's in prison - the Register have got their facts absolutely correct. I've known about this for yonks but didn't tell anyone.
The really amazing thing is that nobody from WMF seems to have known. I remember obliquely quizzing Anthere about this on IRC one merry evening - she either genuinely did not know what had happened or she lied through her teeth to me. What was passing through her mind, I don't know. Someone must have known though...Sue Gardner? She basically seems to have got Carolyn's job. The jail records are pretty much all available on the web, though...hell, I've even got them still bookmarked AFAIK. Cheers, Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 14:02, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Yet another public black eye for Wikipedia.↔NMajdan•talk 19:09, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm actually more bothered by the woman's editing, and the way power is abused at Wikipedia, rather than the way it's doled out. For example, I don't care if they give the keys of the kingdom to an Essjay, so long as he's not an ass. But I myself got indef-blocked by him for no good reason, so I'm afraid his power was abused (another editor rescued me but was so annoyed by other things that he's no longer around--- that's how attrition works here).
In the case of the Duran woman, we had her editing badly and politically, which is never a good sign. She first managed to get moved from a temp position to COO by a board vote of 6 to 1 (and who do you have to *&^% for that to happen to you, we wonder?) without a background check (wups). But she acted as a typical administrator from the beginning, because among her first acts as COO appears to have been to delete, wholesale, sourced criticism from the article on Free Republic [47], after changing from "user:Seand59" to her Carolyn-WMF admin address. Which would have got her into hot water, but as you see, got her a free pass due to her rank. [48] Supposedly she was removing a third-hand report of a threat to the president from an article on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation. Today, most of what she cut out has been returned, so I guess it didn't bring the secret service down on Wikipedia.
That's the kind of stuff I hate to see. IOW, I don't care if she shot her boyfriend, and killed somebody while driving drunk. It's editorial abuse that pisses me off! SBHarris 23:34, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
If we are quoting, then:
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat. Theodore Roosevelt
Jimmy, I know this whole thing is not pleasant, but keep the chin up... There is enough greatness in this project to overcome these setbacks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:42, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, I just have to chime in that I find you to be a very cool customer. Nothing seems to phase or ruffle your feathers at all. With all the "goings on" around here I guess you have to be :) . Anyways, cheers and happy holidays, --Tom 20:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
"I know nothing about this" is the wrong answer, Jimbo. "I will investigate the due diligence in placing Carolyn Doran in charge of WikiMedia finances and will get back to you on that. I am sure we hired a reputable firm to do a background check, but I'll have to ask Sue to get the actual facts. Also, the current audit so far has uncovered no fiscal irregularities." would have been the right answer if it were true. Can you give that answer, Jimbo? WAS 4.250 (talk) 16:55, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I read all three articles in the Register, and was underwhelmed. It did make me interested in Wikipedia, while I had only been a spectator. I don't view any of this as a scandal outside of the small circle of people obsessed with Wikipedia. Just my two cents.