What if the WMF were to create a new project, don't know what to call it other than Wikibusiness. But basically something like TripAdvisor and Angie's List... a business can edit its article puts promotional material or whatever it wanted as long as it was verifiable for example- cant say "#1 camel dealership in Timbuctu! Unless there's a source that shows it is number 1, such as ratings on cameldealers.com, and I hope that's a fake domain name. Requirements for "reliable source" would be relaxed. Editors can add "Reviews" where anyone can edit and add their personal experience with that company, with certain restrictions on profanity and a corporate equivalent of BLP and definitely BLP requirements would stay to protect staff and management personally from being libeled. If we had a place these PR groups could edit "legally" then they might stay off Wikipedia, or at least we'd have a place to direct them to.Camelbinky (talk) 00:11, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
"How many days are left until the Olympic Games?"
In advance of the 2014 Winter Olympic Games in Sochi, some editors may wish to polish some of the articles expected to receive many page views.
Also, some editors may wish to study the Russian language.
—Wavelength (talk) 20:11, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
The small handful of responses to the original question of the effectiveness of mass appeals to the overall, sustained financial health of Wikipedia, now in Archive 146, were appreciated.
Question: Where can one go to review the current, formal business plan for sustaining Wikipedia (through the mass appeals and other funding streams)? [This is a sincere question, in anticipation of brief directive answer (link).]
Pending that further information, I would only note that a funding campaign be perceived, internally, as successful, and may indeed be so in the short run, but utterly fail in contributing substantially to a reliable overall solution, for the long term. Though generally very successfully, fiscally, public radio experiences a form of "primary donor fatigue", as committed supporters become less inclined to increase support are they are regularly denied such staples as news programming during mass appeals. (This particular irritation is largely irrelevant here, but the notion of hidden deleterious impacts during mass appeals is, rather, the point and does obtain.) As well, any level of dependence on an organizational leader to walk away from a Davos-type context with substantial donations that contribute to regular operations—this is the "stuff" of the entrepreneurial phase of an organization, rather than of a successful, mature charitable enterprise (in this manager/scholar's ho).
As for Mr Wales concern that perception of his livelihood and pursuits are being formed based on a single citation (in this case, the single Chozick NYT story), he can rest assured, they are not, at least in this contributor's case. With humour I would note that the one easily traced reference that was given (granted, in non-standard format) amounts to as many or more citations as some long-tagged wikipedia article sections. In those cases, there appears little hope for content correction or clarification, as Mr Wales accomplished regarding the Chozick citation, in his thoughtful reply. Cheers. LeProf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.9.222 (talk) 01:54, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo. Thanks for helping with the ArbCom elections. I expect you're already working on this, but I wanted to leave a friendly reminder. Could you please evaluate the RfC at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee Elections December 2013/Electoral Commission and determine which 3 candidates the community has selected for the Electoral Commission and which candidates will be the reserve members of the commission? We are hoping to have the RfC closed by 23:59 (UTC), 9 November 2013 so that the commission will be in place when the ArbCom nominations open on Sunday, 10 November at 00:01 (UTC). Thanks very much for your support. 64.40.54.198 (talk) 02:39, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
I cannot help notice that there is a widespread Inconstancy with how famous people, particularly actors and musicians are being described as either British, Scottish, English, Welsh or Irish. I feel that these inaccurate and contradictory descriptions of the British nationality are being fuelled by, and are fuelling, particularly american ignorance about the British Nationality. Its commonplace to find English people, described as British and British people who were Born in Wales or Scotland to be described not as British, but as Welsh or Scottish. However there is extremely few people described as English? So my point is to you, either have everyone born in England, Scotland, Wales or N. Ireland must be described as British or do not describe anyone as British at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.185.46 (talk) 12:03, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
"Senator Rand Paul said he'd resign his office for plagiarism but he cant find a resignation speech on Wikipedia"Camelbinky (talk) 14:42, 7 November 2013 (UTC) Perhaps we should all help write one and see if he uses it?Camelbinky (talk) 14:42, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm a little confused at how a brand new editor managed to insert a change to a BLP article, with no review required: [1]. In this case, the insertion is borderline OK, although the accusation made about wasting parliamentary time is not mentioned in the source cited, and is clearly not established fact so some rewording was needed. However, more generally, I thought the whole point of pending changes is that this kind of potentially libelous material can't end up live on the wiki in the first place. Does this rule only apply to selected BLPs? Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 12:13, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Jimbo, I am wondering which articles we need to add about finance. We have a general article on "Moving average" (with weighted moving average), but long ago, you had mentioned "trailing moving average" and we also need to explain similar issues for a "leading moving average". We still need an article to explain how interest is typically computed daily for a "commercial loan". What other finance articles could be added? -Wikid77 13:29, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
"French says that the firm employs Admins, or high-ranking Wikipedia officers capable of locking pages from being edited, deleting them outright and also banning users and IP addresses from Wikipedia entirely. The site has 1,424 administrators in total, and French calls them an “invaluable resource.”
"According to French, Wiki-PR is in talks with the Wikimedia Foundation to address the complaints and the ban on the firms accounts. Business, he says, is on the uptick since Wiki-PR started appearing in the press."
International Business Times, Wikipedia’s Paid Edits: How To Make Money, The WikiWay, by Thomas Halleck, November 02 2013
French is Wiki-PR’s CEO Jordan French.
I'll just emphasize the obvious: a couple of weeks after the firm is banned from Wikipedia for sockpuppeting the CEO of Wiki-PR is claiming that admins still work for him. And yes, they are still advertising on their website www.wiki-pr.com/services/ that they can still edit Wikipedia directly "using our established network of editors and admins" and will help you "build a page that stands up to the scrutiny of Wikipedia's community rules and guideline."
A serious investigation is needed, followed by some real action. Smallbones(smalltalk) 21:17, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
I understand; and agree! The posting of my thoughts said:
As far as I am concerned, each editor that has published a writing that consisted of your words and your ideas; passing them as their own, has committed an act of plagiarism.
I had hoped to convey the following sentiments (shown as italicized parenthetical prose):
As far as I am concerned (was meant to acknowledge a lack of certainty, while allowing a rebuttal which I would embrace if shown to be wrong),
each editor that has published a writing that consisted of your words and your ideas (this eludes to your clients—as you have said: "Dennis Lo was written by me and published by someone else who paid me for it." [User:Biogerontology] )
passing them as their own (by not identifying the true author, and by default, claiming authorship for themselves—consider Biogerontology's creation summary for Dennis Lo—Created the biography page for the scientists, who discovered fetal circulating cell-free nucleic acids in maternal peripheral blood and invented a multibillion industry
has committed an act of plagiarism (because plagiarism is defined as: "the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own." by Google,[2] "to use the words or ideas of another person as if they were your own words or ideas" by Merriam-Webster,[3] "the practice of taking someone else’s work or ideas and passing them off as one’s own." by Oxford Dictionaries,[4] or "plagiarism occurs when a writer deliberately uses someone else’s language, ideas, or other original (not common-knowledge) material without acknowledging its source." by the Council of Writing Program Administrators,[5] amongst others.)
So tell me; why am I wrong for suggesting that you encourage your clients to embrace plagiarism by the publishing arrangement which you contractually require of them?
I hope my elaboration here has explained the mindset which governed my prose, and, at minimum, helped demonstrate a reasonable foundation for my beliefs (regarding plagiarism) even if by my own ignorance I am shown to be wrong.
I have other reservations about advocacy editing which would become complex iterations if I were to proffer them in prose; easily misunderstood—much harder to effectively explain. Although I'll skip writing of my deeper concerns, I will remain a staunch opponent, against tolerance of its (advocacy editing) practice.—John Cline (talk) 09:30, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
TP, I am familiar with "works for hire", though I did not know "authorship" was transferable under its tenets. While admitting ignorance of this provision, I do find that the work itself must be listed as a "work for hire", which identifies authorship as "in name only". This precludes the work's "fit" within plagiarism's definition because it is not being "passed off" as their own creation, but rather as a creation they own.
What bothers me regarding your arrangement, is the absence of a disclaimer stipulating it as a "work for hire". I hope you will consider disclaiming this status for your future writings, regardless of whether or not the creative author is named. In my opinion, it should be required by wp:policy as well; just as it is by the US Copyright Office.
Interestingly, a "work for hire" is an exclusive arrangement existing betwixt an employer and an employee; where agency is stipulated by law (see agency law). Considering your declaration of the agreement, you do not qualify as an employee. A commissioned work, which yours appears to be, can only be a "work for hire" if it falls within one of nine specific categories of written works; 1.) as a contribution to a collective work, 2.) as a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, 3.) as a translation, 4.) as a supplementary work, 5.) as a compilation, 6.) as an instructional text, 7.) as a test, 8.) as answer material for a test, or 9.) as an atlas. Which of these would you invoke to describe your commissioned works? If they are not one of these, they are not "works for hire", and do not qualify for the exemptions exclusive to this class IIRC. Best regards.—John Cline (talk) 03:22, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
TP, you are confusing reality by suggesting my talk page comments are governed by wp:mos! Here, I am bound by the talk page guidelines; having great latitude to create my reply (called wp:or if the MOS is invoked). Here, I have artistic liberty to add metaphoric contrast and colorful prose. You are practically out of line to suggest an inkling of bad faith in my writing's to you; but instead, you assert its entirety as "a load of bad faith".
I hope this is perfectly clear: You have lost a measure of the community's trust! That measure, is the difference of the diminished trust I have for you upon learning that your Wikipedia account is "for hire", and the trust I had when supporting your RfA. That is a real measure! It can be quantified, though you would have to ask something of me, it can be ignored, requiring nothing, or it can be discounted, and called "a weasel of no weight".
My prose is not an attack, and it is not modifiable by an administrative decree of policy enforcement. It simply is part of the discussion; itself freely subject to further discussion. My words are me; exercise caution when suggesting I am not welcome here!, for I am not welcome where my prose deserve censure.—John Cline (talk) 04:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
I feel pretty much totally comfortable stating they have no admins on their payroll, but they do have active socks still editing. Darius Fisher has asked for a sit down meeting with me, although he's delayed it several times so far. In the interim, I've been compiling a list of Wiki-PR articles and editors that I'll publicly pst and help neutralize once I've heard what Darius has to say (unless he agrees with the ban conditions or something odd like that.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:59, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
"The real surprise was seeing established editors with good reputations start off with simple, safe contracts, and then (in some cases) move into progressively more problematic editing" ... I want to hear all about this, Bilby, let's hear it! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:59, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
To just be totally clear, I'm not kidding about having to AfD Viacom and almost every Viacom subsidiary if we AfD'ed all articles wiki-pr touched, btw. That is why this type of operation is deeply problematic. Kevin Gorman (talk) 03:28, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
What I glean from the above discussion is that while theoretically possible to be paid to wr. iteTHE DISR U PTION IS FRe an article, as the writer becomes more comfortable and lets down his guard, the less neutral the editing can become. This tendency to relax can be counteracted with transparency. Should we restrict paid editing to userspace drafts and talk pages? If the work really is good, would there be a problem to get it reviewed and added to the encyclopedia? Thoughts? Jehochman Talk 04:03, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
I think that in general better decisions are made in a spirit of open and thoughtful dialogue rather than top-down decree. I think it worthwhile to separate two issues - the issue of a community decision by consensus (which requires discussion and poll-taking) and hate speech that may emerge as a part of that process. We wouldn't actually improve things if we shut down open discussion, just to stop a few people from being obnoxious. Better to simply stop the few people from being obnoxious by banning them from the discussion, refactoring their comments, or other such measures as appropriate.— Jimmy Wales
I think that in general better decisions are made in a spirit of open and thoughtful dialogue rather than top-down decree. I think it worthwhile to separate two issues - the issue of a community decision by consensus (which requires discussion and poll-taking) and hate speech that may emerge as a part of that process. We wouldn't actually improve things if we shut down open discussion, just to stop a few people from being obnoxious. Better to simply stop the few people from being obnoxious by banning them from the discussion, refactoring their comments, or other such measures as appropriate.
(restoring indent) Well you see, that's precisely my point. We seem to be having two different conversations, talking past each other, and that has been the general trait of this dialogue all the way up the line. You're talking about how your edits meet the policy, and how they fit within the four walls of Wikipedia's COI practices. But that is not the purpose of this conversation. The purpose is to explore whether the rules and norms of Wikipedia are adequate, and clearly they are not. In fact, while I don't think it's right for a person with a financial conflict of interest to engage in a discussion about a change in the policy on financial conflict of interest, I have to admit that this discussion has been an eye-opener:
and last but not least
I think it is wrong to sanction people for violations where there is no definite line explaining what is allowed and what isn't. We've had a devil of a time getting people to agree on a paid editing policy (banning paid editing in article space). We really need to come together and agree on what's allowed and what isn't. Jehochman Talk 16:26, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo and anyone else reading this! I'm looking for help on the discussion page for Ramtha's School of Enlightenment.
I have researched the school and written a new version of the page that I would like other editors to consider. I've done this work on behalf of the school, though I am not a member of the school, to address some sourcing and neutrality issues in the current version. l have received some advice from a more experienced Wikipedia editor who has suggested I not make any edits to the page myself. Instead, I've been leaving messages on discussion pages and Wikiprojects for a little over a month now asking for help here, but have had a very hard time finding editors who are willing to read the draft, judge it on its own merits and compare it to what is on the page currently. I have made a little progress with a few editors who took interest in the page, but since November 1st I haven't received any replies.
The first half of the discussion about updating this page contains my notes on what I feel is problematic with the current version and the changes I've made in my draft. Because the conversation got so long and went quiet I prepared a summary of the discussion that explains what has been discussed and done so far. I think it might be a good place for someone new to start reading from.
I'm hoping that I can get help here to update this page. I am more than willing to discuss my draft and make any agreed upon changes. Please let me know if you can help. Thank you. Calstarry (talk) 00:12, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, on November 4, i sent you an e-mail from address dan15i @ yahoo.com. Can you read it please and give me an short response or negative or positive so i know what to do. Thanks XXN (talk) 18:00, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
I am a student at Drexel and I saw that you are coming on Tuesday for a discussion. Can't wait to see you there! Zachlp (talk) 02:09, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Article on Mike Ghouse deleted, reason given, "Mr. Ghouse's article was deleted because it seemed to be an advertisement and lacked good sources."
Its no advertisement, it is simply my work on pluralism and my profile. Please consider restoring it.
Thank you
Mike Ghouse — Preceding unsigned comment added by MikeGhouse (talk • contribs) 05:14, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Unreferenced BLPs backlog is at 1387. Help would be appreciated cleaning up. Posting this notice per an earlier request by Jimbo that I post here when it gets high. Gigs (talk) 18:22, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
We have had long discussions about paid editing. I have taken the most evolved draft of the paid editing policy proposals and copied it to Wikipedia:Commercial editing, and marked it as a guideline. Please have a look. We may proceed to have a discussion whether to upgrade that page to policy.
Jimmy, your comments would be very helpful to establish consensus. We have a parade of editors who drop by at every proposal and state oppose with fatuous reasoning. If there is a paid editing problem, it is not unreasonable to assume that the paid editors would monitor these discussions and do whatever they could to frustrate consensus. Jehochman Talk 13:53, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
TParis may be able to get away with commercial editing because he has really high Wikipedia skills. 98% of editors who attempt commercial editing produce poor quality articles and damage the encyclopedia. We need to lose the 2% good in order to get rid of the 98% bad. All engineering involves a trade off. The argument, "This isn't perfect so we can't do it", does not convince me. TParis, I hope you don't mind me using your situation as an example. Please let me know if you do and I'll revise this comment. Jehochman Talk 12:17, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Surprisingly, almost everybody on this thread seems to agree on something - that for big issues, the consensus system doesn't work very well. At a minimum, a discussion among 100 editors is very hard to follow, easily sidetracked, and generally forked. The idea that a small group of editors with a very specific concern can sidetrack a whole discussion and prevent anything from changing on Wikipedia is expressed very often, whether it supposes some sort of evil intention, or just some type of "single purpose editors." This "evil cabal" type thinking has, as far as I can tell, never been tested and might even seem as untestable as the usual conspiracy theory. But actually, the general idea is very testable.
The WMF could have a simple editor survey done. Instead of a self-selected group 100 editors having their opinions considered, in an RfC cacophony, 1000 or more editors could be easily heard and have their opinions compiled in a rational way. The wording of the questions asked, would of course be a key factor, but we could have community members suggest wording to the WMF and have them decide on the final wording. The experiences and opinions of readers could also be included, perhaps in their own survey. Readers are often ignored in Wikipedia and their opinions are really very important here. Admins might have their own survey as well. At the end of say a week-long survey, the WMF could compile the results, come up with 4 or 5 general conclusions, and then go back to the editorship and say "Please come up with policies designed to implement these general principles."
Otherwise, I think we are going to be stuck with a couple of small groups at constant loggerheads who can't do anything to solve a problem that will continue to come up every 3-6 months in outside media, and will continue to destroy Wikipedia's credibility. Smallbones(smalltalk) 15:12, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
(restore indentation) I think that it's OK for subjects of articles to come to talk pages and ask for fixes, updates or improvements in the article. But what we've seen in some articles is that this privilege has been abused. The PR people for large companies have made lengthy drafts of entire swaths of text, posted it on the talk pages and as subpages on their own user pages, and those texts have then been placed within the articles by other editors. That complies with current practices. However, I have three problems with this:
1. Theoretically, editors should thoroughly vet the material posted by the companies. But as a practical matter that doesn't happen, and the result is that the text went into the articles, and the text provided by the companies has been flawed in various ways: mainly by giving short-shrift to negative information.
2. More broadly, this practice breaches the reader's expectation that what appears in Wikipedia is drafted by uninvolved, unpaid editors, not by the company. There is a signficant qualitative and quantitative difference between drafting an entire updated section on a company's ongoing litigation, using sources suggested by and text written by the company, and merely correcting errors or updating numbers.
3. In some instances, corporate employees have become the dominant voice on the talk page of articles, giving them a role in the editorial process that they should not have.
The above is also why I think that paid editors using Articles for Creation is also a bad idea. Coretheapple (talk) 17:44, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Above, Corey describes paid editing with the following terminology liberally sprinkled throughout:
All of this venom is being leveled by someone who has never even created a single Wikipedia article from scratch. Tell me, why would any successful and talented paid editor even bother trying to engage someone like Corey, when there's so much hatred to chisel through before you even get to having a thoughtful discussion? - 2001:558:1400:10:74CC:4937:25F3:2294 (talk) 18:28, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo! Looks like our first thread was archived. I see that you reviewed my draft and the current version. I left you a message about a couple of comments you made on the discussion page. Hope you can pop back over there soon. Calstarry (talk) 16:23, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
This is the ad at the top of my screen right now. It doesn't look to be a part of the fundraising campaign and it looks like tasteless spam. Aren't we better than "10 percent off this week only!!!!" forms of advertisement? ThemFromSpace 18:49, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
From my Yahoo search for jobs wiki, I found the following pages.
(They have jobs and seek editors, but, conversely, WikiExperts.us and Wiki-PR and http://wikipediawriters.com and http://hireprowriters.com/2011/05/wikipedia-writer/ and http://www.thewritersforhire.com/services/web-social/wikipedia/ have editors seeking jobs.) Both functions are advertised at http://hirewiki.wordpress.com. —Wavelength (talk) 21:15, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, I want to thank you for your help a few weeks ago and ask another favor. I've recently learned that you likely know how to reach Richard Branson. If so, would you please let him know that the "Distributed Generation working group on LinkedIn" mentioned on [27] is not presently connected to anything? I have been trying to reach him but have been unsuccessful, and in the past on a similar issue, his staff was very dismissive. I have very many things I would like to recommend to him and his colleagues, and I hope you will please ask him to send me a Wikipedia email if at all possible, or perhaps if he approves you might send me an email with his most appropriate contact information for such topics. Thank you for any help you may be able to provide. Tim AFS (talk) 01:10, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
I was utterly disgusted by [28], describing how laborers to make iPhone cameras were first made to borrow and hand over huge (for them) sums of cash to broker after broker before they finally had a chance to be laid off from the Apple subcontractor and go home in debt.
Do you think it's conceivable to set up a jobs.wikimedia.org site to act as a clearinghouse for offers and tips about those sorts of positions, that would somehow work to help the companies looking for workers be able to bypass that whole crooked hierarchy? (I admit, I don't know how to do that, but I think someone does) I suppose some brokers would be inevitable, since the people lack Internet access and doubtless there are officials who need to be paid off, but is it possible for a crowdsourced resource to collapse things to one level of middlemen only? Wnt (talk) 19:05, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Martin Poulter, at the University of Bristol, has commended Wikipedians for their contributions.
—Wavelength (talk) 17:08, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
I came across a page via RfC and have been watching for a while: new edits are routinely reversed with little explanation, while discussion, on the talk page, is dismissive and regularly becomes abusive. The only explanation given is that this was once a 'Featured Article' therefore info that doesn't have "high quality" reputable sources (not just WP:RS but 'high quality)' will be deleted - or, as one put it 'go write a book, then we'll quote it'. At what point is keeping Wikipedia FA status allowed to prevent an article from being encyclopedic? AnonNep (talk) 17:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, hope you are well, and so forth.
One of my major concerns about Wikipedia is, the way it can 'spin' any old BLP. I think you care about that too and please, don't worry - I'm not "on a mission" here;
<Frankly, I don't give a toss about the specific subject matter>
Andrew_Gilligan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
This guy is an English journalist - political, commentary stuff. But, he did get involved in the Leveson Inquiry stuff - ie, they asked for his input, and he gave it.
Why is this relevant to Wikipedia?
Because for years, people have read that "Andrew Gilligan is a journalist for the BBC, and was the reporter involved in the story of weapons expert David Kelly" [31].
I know you understand the importance of neutrality in BLP articles - if Wikipedia says someone is 'known' for an event for years, that can have a huge impact on their career.
Sorry to bother you with 'just one BLP'. but... well. yeah. 88.104.4.74 (talk) 22:44, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Sorry for not linking; the discussion is in Talk:Andrew_Gilligan#Introduction_and_Leveson. 88.104.4.74 (talk) 09:47, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm really not trying to push for one specific article, but my point here was broader, using it as an example.
Fact is, you can google "andrew gilligan" "best known" and find dozens of websites saying that he is "best known for a 2003 report on BBC Radio 4's The Today Programme" (and small variations) - which is almost copy-paste from the Wikipedia article, and was almost certainly copied from it, or from another copy of it.
If you search 'Google News', it's a very different story; he is introduced as e.g. "the journalist who became the London mayor's cycling commissioner in January", "senior reporter at the Daily and Sunday Telegraph", or similar.
The Leveson inquiry was one small part of his career - it probably does deserve a mention in the body, but I don't think it should be prominently in the lead section; after all, we wouldn't start the Britney Spears article with "...an American singer known for shaving off all her hair".
We know that, in reality, a great many sources get their 'facts' from Wikipedia - that means, if we boldly declare in the start of a BLP that someone is known for one specific thing, it can have a real-life impact - almost a self-fulfilling claim, because they then become "that person known for x". 88.104.4.74 (talk) 10:01, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
---
Hello again,
Mr Wales, I've used you as an example in a shortish rant about my BLP concerns here.
I know you're a very busy chap, but I hope you might have the time to look at that, and put in your ha-pence worth.
What Wikipedia says about living people, especially in the leader section of articles, has very 'real world' consequences - as I am sure you are aware.
If Wikipedia says "Gilligan is best-known for xxx scandal", then other websites assume we've done our appropriate checks, and he *becomes* "that guy known for xxx".
Again I emphasize, I'm not posting here because of that specific case - it just serves as an example.
I hope Wikipedia will take extra-super-special care about leaders in BLPs. 88.104.4.74 (talk) 18:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
The tendency for the Wikipedia-mirror websites to post only one revision of a page, and rarely update with broader text, is an unfortunate problem with many mirror websites. Perhaps we should create more journalist (or celebrity) articles through wp:AFC and try to balance controversial aspects of their lives before release as main-space article pages. I can confirm dozens of cases where an old revision of page becomes mirrored, parroted, in perhaps 30 other websites, and so people complaining of outdated text, or unbalanced spin, is a valid concern. Fortunately, the more notable a person, the more likely for broader sources, plus the Wikipedia page, to be listed during the first 50 search-result entries (vast majority of users view 10 results-per-page), long before mirror web entries repeat the old-revision text, over and over, from dozens of mirror webpages. One fix-it solution would to ensure the current Wikipedia revision mentions a person's most-notable connections first, and perhaps emphasizes the relative low-concern of whatever issue seems to overrun the mirror webpages. People tend to trust Wikipedia, especially for relatively current information, and so a properly balanced current WP revision can set the tone to downplay, or counter-spin, any excessive emphasis on wp:UNDUE text in the mirror copies. However, I do wish the King of the Earth would mandate all mirror websites to update periodically with current text, but we need to deal with the search-engine reality of mirror websites showing only one revision of a page, locked in stone for years to come. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:12, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
If you would have any sort of ideas yourself regarding maybe some things which could be done at Wikisource, please feel free to mention them at wikisource:Wikisource:Scriptorium#Goals for 2014. John Carter (talk) 01:03, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
User:Haldraper has three times removed reliably sourced content.
He also misrpresents the consensus on the talk page. which was to remove it from the first sentence, not from the entire introduction. I left a message on his talk page but he did not reply. Whats the best way forward? Pass a Method talk 11:24, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Jimbo. Let's assume I wanted to hire someone to write a resume′. I would want someone who is an experienced wordsmith, adept at the subtleties of manipulating words. Someone who is able to hide the truthful embarrassing facts of my frailties and flaws. Someone who can make the sun shine during a rainstorm. I would want my resume′ to highlight only the good points of my life and to barely, if at all, mention the low points. If my terrible grades as a freshman are mentioned, they might be explained as Freshman Adjustment. The sordid event and arrest resulting from the Sorority Incident could be easily passed off as a "childish prank". Since my lawyer promised that the record was expunged, there is no real need to even mention the event. The fact that I attended maybe 10% of my classes is slander and anyway, how is that pertinent, and who is gonna prove it!. I got my degree did I not. What I want, what I am paying the resume′ writer to do, is to make me look like a $10000 tuxedo. The fact that I usually run around in sandals and shorts is unimportant. He gets paid to make me look good, even if I'm a shlub. He is paid to hide my blemishes, my warts, my scars. His job is to get me THE job. Not to worry about following the Rules. And, I'm certainly not paying him to worry about the reader of the resume′. The reader is completely unimportant except for how the reader can be manipulated by my resume′ writer. ```Buster Seven Talk 07:43, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Paid advocates have "already lost, they just don't realize it yet." I believe you Jimmy, please let all of us non-paid editors know what we can do to support this outcome. How long do you think it is going to take? All the best, Smallbones(smalltalk) 21:01, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
I'd like to echo that. Those of us, the distinct minority of people in this discussion, who are opposed to paid editing are of course encouraged by the support of the founder, but more concrete action would of course be welcome. Coretheapple (talk) 21:08, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Breathlessly awaiting more details.... petrarchan47tc 21:56, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Late to the party, but the copyright violation, mentioned way up above, contains a revealing section (quoted here, ahem, in part, as per fair use under the copyright act): "Of course, we all know what this means -- the anonymous competitors and critics of a company are free to edit in defamatory content about their target, all to their heart's content. However, the subject of the article is forbidden to engage directly and have the right of response within the content battle." Compelling argument for a anti 'Puff & Snark' policy that focuses on (edit, revert & delete of) content not (block and ban) of users (and which could still, quite reasonably, restrict the directly concerned from, well, direct edits). AnonNep (talk) 16:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
[Note: Because the anonymous ip seems constitutionally incapable of asking questions in a civil manner (having tried twice and failed miserably) I am going to write the legitimate questions and answers myself, as an illustration of how to do it.)
Hi Jimbo! In my ongoing exploration of the question of conflict of interest edits in Wikipedia, I found some that I thought worthy of calling to your attention, given your strong position on the issue.
What do you think of these edits to the article about Telenor, from June 2013? Of course we know that not every employee of every corporation is going to be familiar with your "Bright Line Rule" that forbids paid advocates from ever directly modifying a Wikipedia article about their own employer or client. However, shouldn't we expect someone who self-identifies as vice chairman of Wikimedia Norway and as Vice President of Telenor Group to be a little more knowledgeable about best practices at Wikipedia? He also created the Wikipedia article Uninor, which is an India-based joint venture of Telenor Group. It seems particularly problematic and potentially embarrassing since the Wikimedia Foundation has formed an alliance with Telenor to bring Wikipedia free to people in the developing world? This edit also strikes me as problematic since it is an article about a competitor of his employer, in a section about a "dispute" between his company and the competitor. I'd love to hear your comments on this matter. - An anonymous user, you can call me "Greg" if you want a nickname for me.
A user brought this to my attention, and asked for my input. My input is in the form of a question: what policy change, if any, would the person who raised this issue like to institute? Is he or she in favor of restricting paid editing? Or does he or she have another objective in raising this issue? I ask because this does not appear to be one of the situations that I feel are problematic and widespread: editors hired by companies to edit articles, or employees of companies assigned to edit or create articles. I may be mistaken. But whether or not I am, I'm curious to know what the point is of raising this, and what solution is being advocated here. Coretheapple (talk) 21:39, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Where does one report what may be an inappropriate or offensive user name?Camelbinky (talk) 21:15, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
I will look at it. Demiurge1000, was there any particular part you found hard to understand or confusing? DES (talk) 22:11, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
J, I didn't object, I just wondered why they'd asked here. 88.104.4.74 (talk) 00:46, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi, Jimbo and watchers. Is anybody here aware of any data on the extent of paid advocacy editing in Wikipedia? I'm asking because there are lots of hand-wavy arguments on both sides of the COI debate ("it's not really a problem" vs "it is huge and extensive problem") and there is nothing like data to help ground discussions in reality. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jytdog (talk • contribs) 16:36, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
(EC) I don't think we have good data on anything involving paid editing or conflicts on Wikipedia, our data gathering systems have just not been set up for that. Paid editors don't volunteer this information and remain in the shadows, not because they've been forced there, but because they know it is wrong to put adverts into an encyclopedia that doesn't accept adverts. We've got a similar lack of data on many potential problems.
I'll suggest looking in certain categories, e.g. Category:Foreign exchange companies, where it looks to me like about half of the articles are poorly sourced and on subjects that are at best of marginal notability. While the writing style usually does not scream out "This is an advert" it also is not our usual encyclopedic style, and there is seldom any less-than-complimentary info included. Smallbones(smalltalk) 19:04, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, still just looking for "yes, here"; "no"; "i don't know" as to whether there is data. "i've looked hard and found nothing" is a great answer too. if there is really no data and nobody has any idea how big or small of a problem this is, then we all should make our arguments a bit more carefully, and should respect those who say things like "there is no evidence that this is worth my time". i currently have no answer for that, which is a bummer. Still very interested in hearing what folks know! Jytdog (talk) 19:40, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Well, I think everybody should calm down, but it is very clear that Jtydog is not a "data guy" because he is asking for data that is very unlikely to exist in solid form and then trying to draw conclusions from that. Simply not possible to draw any conclusions here from or about non-existent data. Consider data on "unreported rapes." You can actually get estimates on this and probably have been able to get these estimates for the last 40 or 50 years, but you have to understand that they are just people's best guesses. If you want a national report of documented cases of unreported rape, you're just not asking the right questions. Similarly, you might be concerned about the importance of the Higgs Boson because there has only been one probable sighting of one (and it was really tiny!). Well it's obvious that statistics don't mean very much on this - theory and first principles matter here.
The lack of data on important questions is nothing new - it happens all the time. The first things to do are to 1) figure out why the data would be important; 2) come up with some rough estimates to enable you to consider whether the problem is important; 3) come up with some theory or model that would allow you to collect relevant data and test some hypothesis (we've probably not gotten this far); and finally 4) collect the data and test the hypothesis. This isn't always easy, and just as you can't always make decisions based on hard facts, you can't always decide questions based on good statistics. Sometimes you have to go with first principles, sometimes you have to go with rough estimates. I've given you first principles - advertising in Wikipedia is lying to our readers and stealing from the Foundation. I've given you some rough estimates - about 50% of our articles on FX companies are advertising and about 30% or our articles on Investment management companies are advertising. Now please tell me what kind of data do you need to make a decision, how we can gather it, and how long you want to wait before making a decision. Smallbones(smalltalk) 22:53, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
There's really no way to come up with solid data on this without knowing (a) who is at the keyboard making x edits to N articles (with N presumably being a number much bigger than 100, since that seems too low for you), and (b) knowing the motivations of those people at the keyboards. With that in mind, perhaps you would be better off directing your inquiry to the NSA, which might perhaps be more likely to know about (a) and (b) than are the casual readers of this page. --SB_Johnny | talk✌ 01:14, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
User:Stylecustom the PR agency survey article is super helpful, thank you thank you! just finished reading it. while i hear Core that there are some boners, overall it is a boatload of data. Great big picture data that both sides can find support in. (reality, as usual, is messy) (for example, PR professionals find Wikipedia's guidance on clear, unclearon how they should behave. part of that is that all we have is a "guideline"; on the other anti-side; PR professionals find it hard to get articles created and found that big factual errors can remain for a long time). Super interesting. Likewise the article from the danish group is cool but not so helpful. But COOL. Especially their website with the database of their results. Core, check out this page on BP! The best thing is the intro section of the article, which cites several reviews that look very helpful. There is stuff here to work with. Most helpful post so far! Need to think about the useful way to use these. Some kind of discussion aiming at understanding what these articles can teach us, and then possibly moving toward what is the most appropriate policy response. Not sure how to do that. But am happy. Jytdog (talk) 01:49, 19 November 2013 (UTC) (fixed typo Jytdog (talk) 02:14, 19 November 2013 (UTC))
Alas, what is being asked for here is data about two groups combined together. The first group follows the rules and is happy to self-identify. The second group breaks the rules and does everything they can to stay hidden. Every estimate of the size of the latter group only identifies those who are bad at hiding. Nobody has come up with a methodology for estimating how many are good at hiding. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:37, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Well, you have a variety of data now. Bilby had no problem finding a fairly large sample of paid editors to study. Marcia W. DiStaso, despite her obvious biases, working with CREWE and the PR industry and surveying PR professionals who are highly likely to want to make the PR business look good, gives several revealing numbers:
You've got my estimates on the number of ads in 2 categories (30-50%) - which you so rudely dismissed as bullshit.
There are other important numbers you should consider as well:
Given these numbers, and just a touch of judgement on your part, there is no way that you can conclude that commercial/PR/COI editing is not a serious problem. Ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of, but intentional ignorance is. Smallbones(smalltalk) 05:01, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone else detect an ulterior motive in Jytdog's manhandling this discussion? Calling responses 'BS' and telling others to "pipe down" when they're trying to respond to his equivocations... I can't quite tell if he's that obtuse and socially awkward so as not to recognize how offensive his comments above are, or if he's intentionally dismissing others' efforts explaining why the initial question is more complicated than yes, no or i dont know. Full disclosure: I have some experience with his odd conversational practices at Monsanto/GMO articles, where he often comes across variously as a PR shill or naive intern. (fwiw I think he's somewhere in the middle, working for a university which gets funding from Monsanto.) Maybe it's more than one person. El duderino (abides) 06:26, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
There are many more, this was just a quick grab. Lots of opposers do not see paid advocacy as a significant problem; they see other problems (usually advocacy in general) as more extensive and pervasive. They don't know this is true (nobody knows, as we have no data). Their opposition on that basis is handwavy BS; just as support on the basis that paid advocacy is an extensive problem is handwavy BS. Jytdog (talk) 18:20, 19 November 2013 (UTC)