Civility I asked some candidates for arbitrator the following question: how do you feel about applying the principles that we use for BLPs (Biographies of living persons) also to editors: "a high degree of sensitivity", "attributed to a reliable, published source", "written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy", "the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered"?
Team spirit I like to see in the Main page's (frequently discredited) DYK section 1950s American automobile culture, the result of admirable teamwork begun here (where some may not exactly expect civility) ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:04, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Jimbo, I mentioned you here. (I was busy all spring, summer and fall, but also ... I gave up :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:43, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
According to Sue Gardner "Cell phones could be Wikipedia's path to global domination". The words "global domination" regarding encyclopedia just do not sound right, or I am missing something?67.169.11.52 (talk) 03:47, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Pinky: "Gee, Brain, what do you want to do tonight?" The Brain: "The same thing we do every night, Pinky—try to take over the world!"
Pinky: "Gee, Brain, what do you want to do tonight?"
The Brain: "The same thing we do every night, Pinky—try to take over the world!"
We already have global domination, sort of. If redirects to disambiguation pages count. Formerip (talk) 00:20, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
First they took my book of quotations and I said nothing cause I couldn't look up a witty response, then they took my dictionary and I said nothing cause the right word escaped me, when they came for my encyclopedia there was nothing left to say cause I didn't know who Niemöller was. Alertboatbanking (talk) 07:55, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Talk:Kerry_and_Kay_Danes#Edits_required
Summary: two people were railroaded by a dictatorship. The media listened to the dictatorship and spread lies about them. It is argued that Wikipedia has to present those lies because they come from reliable sources. Ken Arromdee (talk) 17:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
I've become the first person to reach 1000 DYKs, the 1000th article is Fatima-Zahra Mansouri, although L'Atelier de Joël Robuchon (London) and L'Atelier de Joël Robuchon (Hong Kong) appear at the same time, so either could be considered the 1000th. Perhaps somebody could highlight this at the signpost or wherever.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 11:26, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
{{main page banner}}
Interesting trivia tidbit for the day: The August 11, 2010, online publication of the Archaeological Institute of America credits a photo to Wikimedia Commons. Yopienso (talk) 17:41, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
OK, so we've got some bad news. According to TIME magazine, (on the World page of the Dec. 17 issue) it revals that there is a UN proposal to censor the web. Just an FYI here. Thegreatgrabber (talk)contribs 07:08, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
[5] from NYT: United States delegates said the pact could encourage censorship and undermine the existing, hands-off approach to Internet oversight and replace it with government control. Collect (talk) 13:45, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
I am afraid that if you take at face value any information coming from Spanish contributors it is going to give Wikipedia a bad reputation for spreading disinformation.
The wikipage headed Bahia de Algeciras is totally false as no such bay exists (only in the minds of Spaniards). The proper name of this bay is THE BAY OF GIBRALTAR, or GIBRALTAR BAY. There is the port of Algeciras in the BAY OF GIBRALTAR. There is no talk page on the Spanish version of that wikipage and corrections (as expected) have been discarded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Correct2 (talk • contribs) 10:11, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
You lot haven't been paying attention. The "disgruntled user" is changing things here on the English Wikipedia, such as in this edit for example where xe broke two interlanguage links, broke the link to the Battle of Algeciras Bay, and falsified the titles of two source citations, simply in order to remove all of the Spanish from the article. Uncle G (talk) 07:29, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
There is, however, evidence on the Spanish Wikipedia that even if Correct2 isn't Gibraltarian, Gibraltarian, editing from another Gibtelecom IP address (178.208.193.77 (talk · contribs)), has hopped onto Correct2's coat-tails very smartly, in under 24 hours, having been quiet since March.
In addition, and probably to be expected, sadly: Contrary to the assertions made above, es:Discusión:Bahía de Algeciras not only exists but has existed since 2007.
Uncle G (talk) 12:40, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
You are invited to comment here. Nirvana2013 (talk) 09:22, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
At Wesley Snipes, an editor is attempting to insert the editor's personal opinion that Snipes is retired ("inactive") because he is in jail. This, while yet another editor (s?) is attempting to insert unsourced information tying the actor to multiple projects, also without sourcing. Two other editors (one an admin who should REALLY know better) have, in my opinion unwisely, warned me for firmly resisting, and stating that I would continue to remove the unsourced information in the future. This is appalling, and in my opinion this failure to support protection of wp:BLP articles is by far the largest threat to the project.
Now I am indeed unsociable, grumpy, unpleasant, and won't be changing. If that means I pose more of a threat by pushing out editors, then I should certainly not be part of the community.User talk:Unfriend12 15:38, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Edited for typos.User talk:Unfriend12 15:38, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Is http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/whowriteswikipedia still current on the proportion of logged out editors contributing the bulk of Wikipedia content? Where are the official statistics on this? 70.59.11.186 (talk) 15:44, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
I rather think the paragraph in the lead of Christian Science might run afoul of WP:NPOV myself.
The rest of the article seems to be written in a quite similar vein:
And so on ... as "miracles" from prayer are a fundamental tenet in most Christian groups (heck - also in Islamic and other religious groups), I wonder if we are well advised to label religions as "pseudoscience" in Wikipedia's voice. Collect (talk) 01:56, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Isn't the statement "CS is pseudoscience" simply an uncontested factual assertion — when considered in a Western rational/scientific context, in much the same way that (say) Crystal healing is? Is the heat in this discussion really down to a difference of views about the frame of reference used? Alexbrn (talk) 14:26, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
I wasn't asking you, My76Strat, but I note you're not answering my (civil & plainly stated) question and instead using disparaging comments to be evasive. I just want to understand the reasoning editors are using before making any further arguments myself. Alexbrn (talk) 16:23, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
I'd think that what it claims should matter. If it claims that medical conditions can be healed by miracles, but it otherwise accepts modern medicine and does not call the miracles scientific, then it's not a pseudoscience (or any sort of science). If the claims of miracles are accompanied by non-miraculous, inaccurate, scientific claims or if it claims that it is the true science and real science isn't, then it's a pseudoscience. My impression is that Christian Science falls in the latter category and is therefore a pseudoscience.
Whether it should be in the lead is a different question, but I would say that its claims to be scientific are so prominent that pointing out that it's a pseudoscience does belong in the lead. Ken Arromdee (talk) 17:57, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
I think you'll enjoy the video at the bottom of this page: [10]. GabrielF (talk) 16:16, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
What is your opinion of this matter on Commons? I believe Pieter Kuiper has been discussed on your page before after he was indeffed on Commons. As I understand it, the people pushing for his block were largely contributors whose images he had nominated for deletion, typically because those images had copyright issues (see related discussions here: [11]). Since then he has been using IPs to file deletion requests on Commons to continue pointing out copyright issues. Commons admin Cirt, who is also a former en admin who was severely sanctioned by ArbCom and desysopped, imposed the range blocks that appear to target tens of thousands of IP addresses throughout the country of Sweden. Unfortunately, Commons apparently has no dispute resolution body akin to ArbCom so all contentious matters are handled by the community that also appear to have difficulty addressing this problem given a vocal group of editors and admins who seem to feel they have been wronged by Kuiper.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 01:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be helpful to add some context. This episode started with a complaint about dynamic IPs being tagged as sockpuppets of User:Pieter Kuiper. User:Fæ (who has a history with Kuiper) then asked about the collateral damage of a range block. After some intervening discussion (about Kuiper, not about collateral damage), Cirt blocked three ranges comprising 44,000 IPs for a full year. In response to my query about whether Cirt had asked a checkuser to establish the amount of activity on those ranges, Cirt replied that they had not. User:Tiptoety, a checkuser on Commons, then checked and reported that there "there are a number of legitimate users editing from it". Cirt then reduced the block to 3 months. After some further discussion, Cirt reduced the blocks to two weeks. After even more discussion, User:Rd232 removed the range blocks entirely. Cirt has now declared themselves to be on a short wikibreak, presumably until this blows over. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:58, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Howie Mandel is Jewish, yet the article mentions alot about him being Canadian and one line mentions that his family is of Jewish descent. But yet he attended Hebrew School in Canada, and therefore there is more than his "family is of Jewish descent", obviously his family (and him at least as a child) were actually observant. I understand if some people dont like to classify Jews as anything but religion, but why is Canadian more notable? Plenty of sources talk about Howie being Jewish, isnt that all that matters? Lots of articles fail to mention a Jewish connection even though plenty of sources mention the Jewish connection, if sources are found that talk about Jewishness of a person or theme then shouldnt that be mentioned instead of simply a consensus that Jewishness isnt encyclopedic, I thought sources trump !rules in Wikipedia.97.85.211.124 (talk) 04:04, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Camelbinky has asked this same question three times on this page alone, including at /Archive 79#Should we say someone is gay, Jewish, African-American, Australian, or Antarctican? in 2011, and at /Archive 109#Is there a bias against calling people who were born Jewish as such? in 2012. Then there was Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism/Archive 26#2 sources to support that Nikki Yanofsky is Jewish? in 2011 where Camelbinky, AndyTheGrump, and Bus stop all had the same "notable for being Canadian" argument. Is this some sort of biannual ritual for all of you? Uncle G (talk) 12:36, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Oh boy oh boy, let's gear up for yet another exciting "who's a jew" debate. Or not..... I know I've said this before, but we've really got to put some effort into revamping policies towards race/ethnicity/religion issues. Frankly, I don't understand why we can't just agree that there's an inherent degree of subjectiveness to things like race, nationality, ethnicity, religion, sexual persuasion, and sometimes even gender. We've got to call out that WP shouldn't be using these classifications unless they're truly unambiguous, relevant to notability, or self-identified with. There's a sad contingent of editors on WP who seem to love racially categorizing biography article subjects on WP, similar to how the Belgians categorized folks in Rwanda (and we all know how that turned out). Those editors ought stop. We ought write policy to make them stop. NickCT (talk) 13:26, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Jimbo, you didn't comment on my (redacted) about an (redacted) who self-identified as a pro-pedophilia advocate, but I hope you took the time to read my blog post nonetheless. I just wanted to let you know that I've done a (redacted). Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:19, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Seraphimblade, now that you've hidden the discussion, will you will be blocking the user I discuss in my blog post? If not, why not? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:25, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Barring any discussion about that other editor, I find it very strange that we have a policy WP:Child protection which is supported by a who's who of Wikipedian administrators, yet nobody wants to enforce any aspect of it, for or against the accused, at all. Putting a hat on that material above is the first step I've seen toward enforcement - and wasn't done the last time this discussion crossed this page - but the policy calls for revdeling it. And Carbuncle ... I don't think it's fair that I've nearly agreed with you, called for the community to be able to look into these issues as you want them to be able to, only to be called here (via link to your blog) "one of Wikipedia's most unhinged editors". It is hard for you to be effective when you act that way. Wnt (talk) 16:07, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Please be aware of Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2012#Results. Thank you. MBisanz talk 21:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
"The No. 1 college basketball recruit has his own personal Wikipedian, and it sure does show. Let's compare his Wikipedia page, which is nearly as big as Michael Jordan's, to that of the No. 1 football recruit, Robert Nkemdiche. 71.202.122.192 (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
I could describe myself as Ted Alletson's Wikipedia biographer, but he's unlikely to pay me, given he's been dead for about 50 years. Sadly, none of the living people I've written FAs about have paid me either. Perhaps I'm still driving a slightly battered car because I include things in biographies that they might have preferred me to glide over or omit altogether. --Dweller (talk) 10:34, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Today our fine featured ad for the Christmas shopping season is Final Fantasy. It is one of many featured articles from the prolific and dedicated editors of WP:WikiProject Square Enix, devoted to the fine products of Square Enix and its European division. Though less than half of Square Enix's fine products that have reached FA status have actually been displayed on the Main Page so far, they still have appeared about once every 212 days since 2006:
The Square Enix WikiProject doesn't include works of the wholly owned subsidiaries Taito and Eidos in its lists, so I didn't count Taito's Space Invaders (April 24, 2010) and I'm not sure how many more of those there are, but their articles don't seem like they've seen anywhere near as much attention - there are even lots of redlinks.
It looks like some folks at Square Enix have a lot to be proud of on their resumes, and I'm sure they have a bright future ahead of them in Wikipedia advertising. Wnt (talk) 19:20, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Welcome.
To you and yours, Have a Merry ______ (fill in the blank) and Happy New Year! FWiW Bzuk (talk) 01:25, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
It has been six months since the last flurry of activity here, so it's perhaps worth reminding everyone of the background to pot-stirring from IP addresses that geolocate either to Stanford University or to places surrounding it, and in particular the tactics of talking about onesself in the third person and using wireless Internet hotspots in San Francisco and elsewhere (usually in the morning and evening, Pacific Time). Uncle G (talk) 10:43, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
Having determined that they met all the criteria for appointment, including having already identified to the Foundation, and in accordance with our longstanding traditions and their performance in the election campaign, I hereby appoint Newyorkbrad, NuclearWarfare, Worm That Turned, Carcharoth, Timotheus Canens, Coren, Salvio giuliano, and David Fuchs to two-year terms beginning January 1st, 2013.
This is the moment when I normally post a bit of a "state of the union" address to the new ArbCom and to the community, but as of two days ago I came down with an awful cold and I'm not really in a position to write up my full thoughts right now. (It's really important and I want to get it just right.)
In short, I'm planning in January to submit to the community for a full project-wide vote a new charter further transitioning my powers. Because the changes I hope to make are substantial, I will seek endorsement from the wider community. (There are powers which I theoretically hold, but can't practically use without causing a lot of drama, but it is increasingly clear to me that we need those powers to be usable, which means transitioning them into a community-based model of constitutional change. One good example of this is the ongoing admin-appointment situation... a problem which I think most people agree needs to be solved, but for which our usual processes have proven ineffective for change. Some have asked me to simply use my reserve powers to appoint a bunch of admins - but I've declined on the view that this would cause a useless fight. Much better will be for us to put my traditional powers on a community-based footing so that we, as a community, can get out of "corner solutions" that aren't working for us. More to come in January.
Would prefer not to have a random speculative fear-mongering discussion about this today. Leave the end-of-the-world doomsaying to the Mayans. (Or rather, to the nutters who willfully misinterpreted the Mayans!) There will be plenty of time for panic in January. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:59, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Bear in mind though that if you put your fingerprint on admin appointments and it turns out to be a bad choice, you'll have to actually admit making a mistake in public, which I know you're not fond of doing. --SB_Johnny | talk✌ 21:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Jimmy, I've emailed you on a Signpost matter. Thanks. Tony (talk) 13:38, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
When will Wikipedia make major changes that will automate the process to reconcile disputed edits? Wikipedia is noted for the software that allows editors to create and edit it's content. However, didactic discourse among editors is required to create a body of organized, accurate, and sourced content on Wikipedia. Instead, dysfunctional discourse or no discourse appears to often govern this process.
Consequently, dependable software rather than unreliable trust is needed to guide the interaction of editors to reduce the likelihood of friction and increase the spirit of collaboration like LiquidFeedback used by the Pirate Party in Germany. Any thoughts on this? Mitchumch (talk) 09:39, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
Jimbo, why your talk page is stamped with "noindex"? Was that "noindex" added by an accident, or as most corrupt organizations Wikipedia is afraid of transparency? Thanks.71.202.123.14 (talk) 19:18, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
In a recent 10 day span, 461 GAs and 248 FAs were counted in less than 5000 of our most viewed articles (see the bottom of User:West.andrew.g/Popular pages). I think that's great news considering how rare a random article here is a GA or FA. I challenge you, Jimbo, and whoever else that wants to commit to this, to bring one of the consistently top 5000 articles up to GA status in 2013. As for me, I'll be planning on getting at least two up to GA status, and I'll list them below. And everyone should do a good article review for as many nominations as they put up. I'll put "Yes" after my name to commit to that as well. Biosthmors (talk) 20:01, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Merry Crimbo, Jimbo and thanks for an awesome year of Wikipedia-ing and for going with the community consensus on SOPA! --W.D. (talk) 12:35, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
There needs to be new policies and guidelines regrading MMA. The ones that we have now clearly arent working, and MMA related pages which are notable keep getting deleted by this kid named Mtking. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 20:37, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
Jimmy, the subject line is "Invitation to comment in the Signpost's 2012 retrospective", sent 13:34 UTC on 22 December. Please let me know if you can't locate it. I sent a back-up to Topher at around the same time. Tony (talk) 11:48, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
On Wikipedia's own donations page we learn of a moving story of a student in Agnam-Goly, a Sahelian village in north-eastern Senegal with a population of 3,143 inhabitants, who expresses how he'd love to give money to the foundation."I wish I had money to donate to Wikipedia," writes Adama Diop.Does he know wealthy Westerners are using the donations to buy cameras and travel to pop concerts? Or that the foundation has more cash than it knows what to do with? 71.202.122.192 (talk) 18:46, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
And we got on Reddit that Friday. And it was tricky to get on Reddit even—Reddit is just this beehive of anti-SOPA sentiment but at that point really wasn’t woken up to it. I remember sitting down at the keyboard and thinking, ‘Okay what will get people’s attention?’ The post I wrote was something like, ‘The MPAA will soon have the power to block American’s access to any website unless we fight back’—comma—‘hard!’ And that was the post—that post got to the top.
We've got a number of large sites participating - Boing Boing, HypeMachine, and Reddit have all agreed to black out their logos. We are hoping Wikipedia would be willing to do the same. We actually spoke to Erik Moeller about participating, and although he said he would be happy to support in other ways, that we would have to ask the Wikipedians themselves if we could black out the Wikipedia logo tomorrow (or perhaps sometime in the near future - more on that later).
People still argue about JFK and lots of other things, and there is no chance that those with an agenda will change their views. Throwing mud because of a personal political outlook or a personal history can be fun, but too much of it is an abuse of the open nature of Wikipedia. Many good editors agreed with the blackout, so please rewrite history on another website. Johnuniq (talk) 23:19, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
I took a position.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:50, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Back in 2004, on the behalf of Wikipedia you signed up for an Amazon Associates account, as part of short-lived fund raising experiment. The associate code was added to this project page on January 20, 2004, and then was removed from this project page on June 20, 2004. In the first three days of the experiment you earned 34 cents. And you conclude the end of the experiment.
On my personal experiment with Amazon Associates, this month I made already $16 from 14 sales (2.5k clicks. Conversion: 0.65%). With the size of Wikipedia, and the amount of links to Amazon it has (because it is used as a realiable sources for Music, DVDs, etc) I think it could make $50.000 monthly easily (number out of thin air). I suggest you give it another try, but this time with a real experiment.
Adding a link in an obscure part of Wikipedia will not give us any useful information on how much can the Wikimedia Foundation raise. I propose replacing all existing Amazon links with the affiliate link. This work could be done by a Bot.
It would be great if Wikipedia becomes self-reliant without ads, or at least without having to be so aggressive in asking for donations. Last inquiry on this subject (three years ago) got archived without a reply. Just give us an "ok" and we will work on this. (Also please make sure you still have access to the AA account.)
I also would like to know what other editors think of the idea.--Neo139 (talk) 02:57, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
My initial reaction is to counsel against it, but my conclusions are in no way a negative comment about Amazon - I'm a very regular customer, and I patronize a blogger who is an Amazon Affiliate. My main concerns can be summarized as:
For the first, I trust that Amazon is not the only company with such a program. What if loyal customers of several of thousands of other companies want to add an affiliate link? We aren't going to do them all, so how do we choose? An individual blogger can make this decision easily, but a community would find this decision unwieldy, except for one possible answer (don't do it).
If by some miracle, the first hurdle is overcome, where do we place the links? Instapundit is an affilate, and intersperses his blog entries with links to Amazon sales, and occasionally specifically implores uses of the option. I can't image that this sort of direct appeal would be appropriate for Wikipedia (but I know it is effective). If links such as these are place in article space - a firestorm. If placed in high traffic Wikipedia space, probably the same. If placed discretely out of site, then what's the point?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 14:12, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Jimbo, remember I warned you about the Streisand effect yesterday? I wish you'd listen. 71.202.123.14 (talk) 14:50, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Some awfully insulting things are said at Wikipediocracy about many people, and I'm very unimpressed by all of it. They should learn some manners and start treating their fellow humans with respect.
But we need their fearless scrutiny. We do have a problem with BLPs. Obviously. It is just wrong that we host the top search engine result for a living person's name and allow anyone to say anything they like about the subject until someone, after thousands of views, takes the trouble to correct it. Wikimedia Foundation preemptively recognising a government sponsored chapter candidate looks very wrong. The unfiltered pornography on Commons and here is ridiculous. We tolerate people of poor character for too long. The conflict of interest, financial management and effectiveness at Wikimedia chapters needs scrutiny.
Wikipediocracy is drawing these issues to our attention and then, when our response is inadequate, it draws them to the attention of our readership. You, the foundation and the chapters and projects need to start responding appropriately to these valid criticisms. We need leadership from you or the board on these issues. They all damage our relationship with our readers. Andreas is highlighting serious concerns. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 18:25, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
A happy holiday and a joyous new year! Be safe, be well and be happy!--Amadscientist (talk) 23:59, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
TheGeneralUser (talk) is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!
Spread the cheer by adding {{subst:Xmas2}} to their talk page with a friendly message.
To Jimmy Wales! Wishing you a very Happy Merry Christmas :) You're an Inspiration and Legend! TheGeneralUser (talk) 12:29, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Merry ChristmasandA Happy New Year to All
I am 220 of Borg. I partake in this human seasonal celebratory event in order to more successfully infiltrate the Wikipedia collective, facilitating the addition of it's technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile!. Oh,and Merry Christmas!.
cyberpower is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!
As one of my wikifriends, I would like to wish you a Merry Christmas. I hope you had a great one.—cyberpower OnlineMerry Christmas 02:07, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
My position on freedom of speech is very well known and quite clear. It applies worldwide, as I regard the freedom of expression as a fundamental human right. I have always fought for freedom of speech and will continue to do so. My position on working with companies and organization in difficult jurisdictions is, I think, thoughtful and nuanced. To my knowledge, the Foundation's position is more or less the same. It is entirely possible that we would end up disagreeing on some specific issue, but in all the cases that have come up so far, we have not had that problem. And I rather expect any disagreements to lie in borderline cases. In Kazakhstan, there is a great group of volunteer editors - just like you - who are working in a nonpolitical way with their own government to transition an older encyclopedia into Wikipedia, as well as to recruit quality volunteers. Like many people, I have concerns about potential problems, but so far I have been pleased with what I have seen. When I go to Kazakhstan, I will do the same thing that I do everywhere I go: I will speak with the highest officials who will meet with me and try to convince them to respect the fundamental human right of freedom of expression. I will speak to the media, both in that country, but also outside that country (particularly dissident press if it exists elsewhere) about the issue. I will meet with ordinary Wikipedians and ask them with the situation is (with the help of a professional translator or fluently bilingual trusted Wikipedian if my advance research suggests it is necessary, which I think is true in Kazakhstan). I think my approach is the right approach, but I also think there are legitimate questions that could be asked. I often ask them of myself. When I went to Saudi Arabia, I spoke openly about freedom of speech and human rights - particularly the rights of women - and told an all-male audience that it was offensive that women were excluded from the meeting. (They were in the next room listening in!) In this case, I deeply regret having been in that situation in the first place (I did not realize the audience would be totally segregated in that way), and if I am invited again to Saudi Arabia I will insist on different arrangements being made or I won't do a public lecture. The part of this discussion that veered into the absurd was this, for those who didn't read it. One commenter raised the question of Tony Blair's consulting in Kazakhstan and him attending my wedding. That's just totally weird and irrelevant. I have nothing to do with his consulting in Kazakhstan, and I have many political (and religious) disagreements with him, which I'm quite open about. I have lots of friends, many from difficult countries, many who are politicians, and I don't necessarily agree with everything they say (nor do they agree with me). But frankly, my personal life has absolutely nothing to do with Kazakhstan!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Jimbo, could you tell us something about the relationship between Kazakhstan's government and the Kazakh Wikipedia? The reason I am asking is these articles:
Former Prime Minister Karim Massimov, currently chief of staff of the President's Office, who is mentioned in the Economist article as the country's foremost blogger, is mentioned in the second article about your "expected" visit as a prominent supporter of the Kazakh Wikipedia. Andreas JN466 02:21, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
In 2011 Samruk Kazyna Sovereign Wealth Fund allocated a total of $204 million to develop the Kazakh-language Wikipedia. This year, another $136 million will be earmarked, Tengrinews.kz reports, citing the Fund’s Press Service.According to Majilis (lower chamber) deputy Murat Abenov, “the project needs fresh authors (…) The Project is being run by the non-profit WikiBilim organization. None of the staff was paid a salary: they did it voluntarily”. Thanks to the Samruk Kazyna’s financial support, the number of entries in the Kazakh-language Wikipedia had reached 125 000 by the end of 2011, with the number of registered users mounting to 14 550. The editorial staff was increased from 4 to 250 people. The Kazakh-language Wikipedia raised from the 127th to the 35th place in the rankings of countries”, the Fund’s Press Service announced. According to the report by WikiBilim, from June 16, 2011 to December 31, 2011, a total of 71 contracts were signed with a raft of writers, editors and translators. Besides, in 2011 and 2012 a total of 22 000 volunteers have been attracted.
In 2011 Samruk Kazyna Sovereign Wealth Fund allocated a total of $204 million to develop the Kazakh-language Wikipedia. This year, another $136 million will be earmarked, Tengrinews.kz reports, citing the Fund’s Press Service.
According to Majilis (lower chamber) deputy Murat Abenov, “the project needs fresh authors (…) The Project is being run by the non-profit WikiBilim organization. None of the staff was paid a salary: they did it voluntarily”. Thanks to the Samruk Kazyna’s financial support, the number of entries in the Kazakh-language Wikipedia had reached 125 000 by the end of 2011, with the number of registered users mounting to 14 550. The editorial staff was increased from 4 to 250 people. The Kazakh-language Wikipedia raised from the 127th to the 35th place in the rankings of countries”, the Fund’s Press Service announced.
According to the report by WikiBilim, from June 16, 2011 to December 31, 2011, a total of 71 contracts were signed with a raft of writers, editors and translators.
Besides, in 2011 and 2012 a total of 22 000 volunteers have been attracted.
According to Freedom House, Even as officials adopted social media for their own use, promoting state programs and confronting local authorities with incompetence, the state has increasingly contested internet freedom and online alternatives to state-owned news outlets. The internet was accessed by 34 percent of the population in 2010. A 2009 law classified websites as mass media outlets, giving the authorities greater latitude to shut them down under vaguely worded extremism statutes or in the interests of state security. Doesn't sound like an ideal environment for a "free" enyclopedia to me, but maybe Well, I guess they will make an exception for Jimbo, hm? Attaboy. --Janneman (talk) 16:34, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
I've actually been eyeing up Kazakhstan for some time to better cover some of its small towns which are missing enmasse. Although the main towns have population data from old Soviet censuses, I've been looking forward to some up to do population data on every village/ Would be good if the Kazakh government could do a census and publish data for all villages and then work with individuals to get articles put on Kazakh wiki with data and then on English wikipedia.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 18:44, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
I dare re-open this discussion because I think this is a serious issue (and I am not the one who raised questions about your personal life, nor do I intend to). I am willing to assume Good Faith, but I also beleive that in this instance it has led to Poor Judgment and may set a dangerous precedent. I am not exaggerating. I find it hard to believe that the sudden surge in the Kazakh wikipedia is due to "volunteers". Where did the 30 mio. Tenge that Samruk-Kazyna pumped into the project go if not into paid editing? Some of the new content is lifted straight from the "official", regime-approved Kazakh national encyclopedia. What we have here is basically a hostile takeover. Imho the appropriate response to that kind of content, and the way it is funnelled into Wikipedia, would be "thanks, but no, thanks". That is, the WMF's response. Instead it is being touted as a token of the success of the Wiki principle. I find it hard to swallow that. --Janneman (talk) 16:27, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
This does raise some red flags. Questions:
Rd232 talk 17:54, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Well, here's some more info from WikiBilim itself:
So we have Timur Kulibayev (son-in-law of the President) and CEO of Samruk-Kazyna (major Kazakh sovereign wealth fund) sponsoring a Wikipedia-editing contest run by an NGO that wants to become the Kazakh Wikimedia Chapter. I assume you were aware of this, Jimmy; does it sound right to you? Rd232 talk 19:28, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
In addition, the comment from Jayen466 you deleted pointed to this article which suggests Kazakh government interest in using Wikipedia for PR: using forensic investigative techniques, EurasiaNet.org also has uncovered evidence that suggests PR firms may have massaged Wikipedia entries in ways that cast the Kazakhstani government in a better light. Rd232 talk 19:38, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
I was hoping for some more clarification here. Rd232 talk 21:26, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
A question that wasn't asked, but which I think should be asked: "How should the Foundation, and the movement generally, approach dealings with potential chapters in countries where approval from an authoritarian government must be granted before the chapter can exist at all?" A good example is China - it is not possible to have a chapter in China without an official government representative (this is true of all civil society organizations there). Within the Chinese community this has been the subject of much discussion and debate, and I was asked (and agreed) by them to hand a letter to the relevant minister about whether he would give approval (he did not).
I think this is a complex question because there are so many variables in place. We can certainly stake out some easy positions, but there will be a lot of difficult "middle ground" positions. If, in order to have a chapter in Kazakhstan, the Foundation would have to agree to censor Kazakh Wikipedia, then we should refuse. That one is easy. If, in order to have a chapter in Kazakhstan, we would have to deal with an organization that is clearly under the control of the government, then we should refuse. Again, easy. If, in order to have a chapter in Kazakhstan, we have to accept that the chapter, although independent, will have to deal with a very restrictive environment overall, and will not be able to approach political matters at all, but the chapter will be able to assist in getting scientists and academics and smart members of the general public to help contribute, then... well, that depends on a lot of complex variables. Which situation are we in here? I don't know yet, but these are the kinds of questions that have to be asked and answered before we can approve of the chapter.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
I note that on Meta, m:Wikimedia Kazakhstan is a page about WikiBilim as a potential Wikimedia chapter. It gives some info, but no discussion or substantial update in the last year. That page might be a better place for substantive discussion of the wider issues; although much less prominent, it's specialised and wouldn't get buried in a massive talkpage archive a couple of days after the last comment. Rd232 talk 07:44, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
Dear friends, On behalf of WikiBilim Foundation and community gathered around the organization I’d like to add perspective to the discussion. My name is Rauan Kenzhekhanuly. I am co-founder of WikiBilim foundation – non-profit organization based in Kazakhstan, which aimed to the development of Kazakh language content in the Internet. Unfortunately, this debate and publications followed are making doubts and concerns around our activities. I sincerely hope that the information below will shed some light on them and answer all the questions. First of all, WikiBilim’s mission goes far beyond Wikipedia itself. Our goal is to contribute to the well being of Kazakh language, it’s development had been restricted during the Soviet Union. Our attention to Wikipedia and other multi-language open knowledge platforms based on the strong believe in the power of technology and particularly in the power of the free knowledge and the Internet as a great tool to support native culture, mother tongue and modernization of the country we live in.
(WikiBilim has formal cooperation agreements and mutually trusted fruitful relations with all of above mentioned organizations)
I got passionate about Wikipedia during my study at Harvard University. There is an article in The Harvard Crimson, which may provide answers to most of the questions raised in this discussion about Kazakh Wikipedia project particularly.
I’d like to clarify few very important points:
Finally, we are really surprises to find ourselves accused for being a tool of the government. Frankly speaking we thought we are using the government to develop Kazakh Wikipedia ☺.
Here in Kazakhstan we have been criticized for being too pro-Western, if not pro-American. Some of local journalist already called WikiBilim members the CIA agents ☺. Allegedly, WikiBilim administrated by the US government in order to promote Western style democracy in Central Asia. Can you believe it? ☺
Now, some of you guys accusing WikiBilim for making Wikipedia a tool for authoritarian regime. My point is that your perspective (WikiBilim serves authoritarian regime) sounds as nonsense as the views of the local journalists (WikiBilim serves US government). We do have our own mission – we work to develop our mother tongue and to promote our native culture, and we will be using any appropriate tool to do it as effective as it is possible.
Hope that this response made the situation clearer. Thanks for your understanding and we would be happy to provide you with more information in depth about our activities.
Rauank (talk) 02:22, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Rauank (talk) 05:53, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Rauank. I noticed that the WikiBilim logo is currently displayed on the Kazakh wikipedia both on the sitenotice and in a section on the main page. I can't read the text there, except for the word "Nokia" on the main page section, so presumably this has something to do with the ongoing contests.
My question about these contests is whether the names of the people who apply for the prizes are kept confidential (as, for example, the identities of Wikimedia functionaries such as checkusers), or are they shared with the government agencies which are supporting your organization? Also, are the names of these people (and chapter members in general, if there is such a thing) shared with the WMF?
I think one of the chief concerns of the critics here is that participation on wikipedia in general, and Wikibilim in particular, will be noted by the state, and the state does (I hope you'll admit) have a shaky track record regarding freedom of the press (and freedom of expression in the broader sense as well). The WMF simply doesn't have the capabilities required to protect project contributors, which can potentially make them far more vulnerable than professional journalists who at least have an organization to back them. Have you considered including NGOs that do have some experience with these sorts of issues such as Amnesty International and Reporters Without Borders?
I don't think anyone is doubting that there will be plenty of volunteers in Kazakhstan who will be enthusiastic about participating in the creation of a resource for the nation, but I hope you'll understand that we have some concerns about the safety of our fellow wikipedians given the unusual nature of this collaboration. --SB_Johnny | talk✌ 12:13, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo, first I wish you some good days with your family around christmas days without too much trouble about all that stuff I read some lines above. I also wish you to have a good start to year 2013 that for me is my 10th year as a wikipedia author.
Second: Since you do not react on mails nor on facebook messages - as I ead you will be in Mönchengladbach in Germany on 6th of march for a lecture ([19]). I questioned if you would like to have a meet-up with some more or less local wikipedians (people from Aachen, Cologne, the Netherlands and Belgium may be possible at that place). So if this is interesting I would start a meet-up page in the German Wikipedia and organise a bit with the locals. Best wishes from Germany, -- Achim Raschka (talk) 08:21, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
I joined a project now that applies the principles summarised above, Editor Retention. I feel that we are losing the best. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:27, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Since Wikipedia itself isn't a reliable source, applying BLP principles to editors would mean that we could no longer draw conclusions based on an editor's Wikipedia editing. Moreover, even if Wikipedia was considered a reliable source, it would still be WP:SYNTH to combine several edits by an editor and decide that the editor is being disruptive. We'd have to find a source stating that the editor is disruptive before we could state that ourselves.
Currently this is permissible because BLP states that "Although this policy applies to posts about Wikipedians in project space, some leeway is permitted to allow the handling of administrative issues by the community". Your proposal would end that. Ken Arromdee (talk) 15:36, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Peace music I liked to see in the Main page's (frequently discredited) DYK section Leningrad première of Shostakovich's Symphony No. 7, announced on my talk as Peace music, on the human spirit, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:18, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Peace --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:08, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Still Christmas in Germany: Did you know ... that Bach's cantata for the second day of Christmas, Darzu ist erschienen der Sohn Gottes ("For this the Son of God appeared"), BWV 40, is his first Christmas cantata composed for Leipzig? - Please join the discussion the new infobox for Bach compositions or cantatas mentioned above, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:55, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
Now there are two discussions about infoboxes on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music, one about Bach compositions, the other about the project's recommendation not to have infoboxes for people (composers, singers ...), both should be of general interest, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:20, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Sorry to bother you, but, when you have time, could you have a look at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Opera#Infobox_comment_removal_discussion which has generated a lot of heat. Season's greetings from York. --GuillaumeTell 00:55, 27 December 2012 (UTC)