These past weeks, I've been thinking if we should consider changing the conflict of interest guidelines. Users are encouraged to stay away from editing articles with which they would be a conflict of interest, COI contributions can be constructive several times however. The COI contributions could be correcting the information. There was a Daily Telegraph article here mentioning that companies wished they could change the errors at their company pages. It would take weeks for a user to submit the third-party edit for them.
Of course, there are going to be contributions that are obvious self-promotion but there are useful COI contributions. Not all COI contributions are going to be self-promotion or possibly inaccurate information. I believe we may be sending away constructive users that simply want to help build Wikipedia. Comments from talk page watchers are welcome. SwisterTwister talk 06:03, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure when this happened, but Google is now including the first 2-3 sentences from Wikipedia's articles on living people as part of its search results in a separate box on the right hand side of the screen. Apparently, you have to be logged into a Google account to see this. There are no specific problems that I am aware of, but I thought I should mention this so people are aware of this. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:15, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
This might interest a few people.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:33, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
(Problem:) Nobody likes a review. The admins are no fan of it, and editors are too reticent to voice their insight with anything approaching candour.
(Solution:) Take advantage of anonymity by incorporating it into the review process. I suggest new functionality allowing any editor, IP or not, to post their concerns to the admin anonymously. The admin can respond to the individual concern privately, the system doing the delivery while keeping usernames secret. The system hides the ID of registered users, and gives password functioning so that IP's can check a mailbox without signup. The admin only has basic blurry information about the sender, just enough to help them determine if IP hopping is being used to troll them by an individual with many insightful questions, each more insightful then the previous 250 kind of thing, obviously people can sign their names inside the post as they desire.
This would simply supplement the regular system, and take some of the public spectacle and sport out of the laundry. Questions sent to the admin can be made public by the admin and answered publicly as part of their review. This is in addition to the current publicly posted questions, so that some issues can't be avoided. The blurry sender (edit count) information of revealed questions would be open for everyone to see, so that an admin can't run both sides of the conversation themselves.
(Discussion:)
Demagogues hurt both sides. Jimbo says he likes or dislikes something and it illustrates the effect best, as not all of the reasons for replicating his opinion are good ones (apologies for using the 3rd person). I don't always critique my own work because I have noticed arguments which nobody but I would think of are the first thing repeated back to me by people who dislike me. I keep my mouth shut and instantly they have less bullets. Many fear candour because they don't want to hurt the admin, they want to help the admin, but how can they ? If they are upset at the admin, then they are less likely to care or will even use honesty as a weapon. The recipient cannot tell the difference if I am upset at principle being trampled (always the case) or upset at them personally (never the case, I don't care, just change your direction to prove this), but how can they tell ?
Give additional functions where a selection of standard responses can be written by the admin, for example to address a particular decision, action, war, or admitted personal shortcoming. A decision will be explained differently depending upon the audience, so a different 'standard reply' can be sent to the recipient depending on the tone of their enquiry, or pre-loads for tailoring. Quoting what you received back from the admin in private would be frowned upon or subject to guidelines eventually, the admin can post your question, but you generally shouldn't reveal their response directly, as you can simply repost your question in public as you please, so they then may need to respond in public.
It would let an admin address sensitive issues individually as part of the review, removing some of the fear of retribution and the embarrassment of the current system. It allows the many issues that cannot be raised today because such a ballet or diplomacy is required to dance about the issue and speak on exotic levels to shield understanding from different audiences, rather than speak plainly to have your concerns addressed to the satisfaction of both parties. Penyulap ☏ 19:13, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
I would love to thank our very own and beloved Jimmy Wales for giving us, such a marvelous new world our own, my own, your own, we all proudly own our beloved Wikipedia Thanks Jimmy Thanks A lot honestly for creating this world for us, brother that would be highly appreciated, if you would be kind enough to accpect my gift Wikipedia wallpaper I designed it by myself, and keep it on your page that would be biggest honor for me and kindly approve it and provide permission it or use it as property of Wikipedia, Its a Gift from me.
Yours Truly, --Faizanalivarya (talk) 14:59, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear Brother,
Just to show my love towards you as being a creator of Wikipedia, I created your Fan Club Page on Facebook, that would be highly appreciated if you would be kind enough and visit it, I am trying to update it, The link of the FAN PAGE is Jimbo Wales Facebook Fans Club, would be waiting for your reply.--Faizanalivarya (talk) 15:27, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear Visitors,
If you LOVE the founder of Wikipedia and you are his highly admire like me so LIKE page on Facebook and show your love towards him. I need a team as well to make this page more growing therefore like Jimbo Wales Facebook Fans Club to work on it. --Faizanalivarya (talk) 15:32, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Jimbo Wales Facebook Fans Club Page. Thanks --Faizanalivarya (talk) 18:40, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Different IP as I am in transit. It's "the 86" here. Thank you for trying to understand this, sorry you failed. In summary I got a WP:BITE from a WP:GANG which includes administrators, who have no WP:COMPETANCE, but rather have WP:BIAS who ignore WP:BOLD and WP:DONTBITE to WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:BAIT and WP:SOAPBOX. As they are a WP:TAGETEAM including administrators, they twist WP:RULES to WP:LIE and WP:BLOCK anyone who questions their WP:BIAS. I came here in good faith, used WP:BOLD and like many others I now WP:SHUN Wikipedia as a political ego driven home of WP:CENSORSHIP. Since the problem is the administrators as well as the editors I went to the top. I now see that this company reflects its leader. Good luck in life. Maximus. 81.164.44.104 (talk) 07:29, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Jimbo, I did say clearly in the previous post that I hate buzzwords. I used this behavior when you didn't seem to understand my simple English. Actually it is not that these are annoying. They were used against me as rules to have me blocked during a dispute resolution process on a talk page. They were used to attack every comment I made. They were used against the actual definitions they represent. When I presented clear arguments they were thrown out as one liners to negate what I said, with no explanation as to their relevance. I posted a very specific comment on a talk page and it was deleted with WP:SOAPBOX as the explanation. I looked it up and nothing applied to what I said. Yet it was used to delete everything I said. But this person is part of the WP:GANG so if I repost my comments or ask for an explanation I am accused of WP:BATTLEFIELD. Then some admin he knows blocks me for 3 days. One admin actually had me blocked while I was engaged in a dispute resolution process with them. The above reference to Harry Potter being a Girl was not something I said. I just asked the question if enough Secondary Sources said he was a girl would Wikipedia therefore ignore the Primary Resources? I was told yes. Thankfully another admin pointed to WP:PRIMARY to show this was not the case. Essentially as a newbie I don't know enough WP:XXXX to effectively defend against the well organized WP:TAGTEAM. And since the admins jumped to block me and attack me I gave up on Wikipedia. I later saw that the same admins were essentially Wiki friends of these people and therefore part of the WP:GANG. When the admin is breaking the rules, abusing me and then blocking me for insulting language, I came to you. WP:DONTBITE and WP:BOLD don't seem to apply in reality. If my company had a new employee and 3 days later they quite because of abuse by management I'd be concerned. The method of the abuse is the misuse of WP:XXXX but that is not really my issue. It is the attitude that is my issue. I was accused here of not being a newbie simply because I learned a few WP:XXXX. No one actually considered I might be real. I even made some up WP:XXXX and no one noticed. What is really upsetting is that many people have made the same claims on the talk page of the article and yet I am painted as this lone terrorist. So I just gave up being a part of Wikipedia. Thank you for your time, I know how valuable time is for everyone, whomever you are in life. I will also wish you success, beyond luck, and most of all happiness. Maximus ("The 86"). 81.164.44.104 (talk) 12:31, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Ok sorry. When I didn't use them I was attacked for that. So here is it in English. People are misusing the rules of Wikipedia to attack someone new to Wikipedia for changing an article they control. And your own admin are using this jargon and their position of power to block a newcomer. This is done to support the attack against a newcomer with knowledge and the desire to accurately represent the facts on Wikipedia. The editors and their admin mates have worked together to make me look like a lone vandal, not a knowledgable person. They have done this repeatedly to others who also gave up. As the boss, since those beneath you in admin are part of the problem, I see that only you can fix this. I hope that is clear. Maximus. 81.164.44.104 (talk) 14:08, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Jimbo, here is some direct non jargon statements by others, not me, on the article talk page. I post this as I see an issue ingrained in the process of Wikipedia, that many are facing and not solving, not just an issue with one article: “I have read many websites and other materials supporting this diet pH concept and there never seems to be any claim of modifying the blood's pH levels.” “Criticisms only all based on personal opinions and twisting of the theory.” “Attempts to balance this article have continually been thwarted by what appears to be biased policing of editors attempting to make the article more realistic.” “It seems all attempts by many to neutralize this article's bias have been attacked and the users threatened with severe warnings of punishment or embarrassment” “Each time a reference or statement has been added with links to any positive information it has been deleted.” “Most attempts to correct this bias, to more factual statements, have been thwarted by selective editing by certain moderators. Some edits, reverted by conscientious moderators, have even been reverted only to be reedited to the original edit. This demonstrates severe bias as noted in another section.” “Comments not inline with the moderators in charge have been removed. It was so bad at one point an editor replaced a dead link I removed twice, with threatening notices about vandalism, only to discover it was a dead link.” “A previous editor included links to research by MDs and it was reverted as ‘Primary Research’ conflicting with their secondary research in the article.” “The present day version of this article shows no support for the diet, only criticism... Presently, there are no supporting arguments, or even a thorough explanation of the principles behind the alkaline diet.” “Some references were provided (check history) however they were reverted by editors concerned with the content, repeatedly without consensus.” “I think it is fair to say that the alkaline diet article totally misrepresents the perspective shown in the scientific literature.” Maximus 81.164.44.104 (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Jimbo, I feel the need to draw your attention to the real-wp outcome of this incident (this third-party comment encapsulates my own concerns on the matter). Andy's four-lettered prose apart, I think it's important to bear in mind that conscientious editors such as he is are also human beings. Disclaimer: As a largely uninvolved spectator, I just wanted to draw this issue to Jimbo's attention - not canvassing! —MistyMorn (talk) 10:15, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Dramahclipse aside, I feel MartinEvans is right when he says the other party must have been over the moon with this "result". Something went awry here, imo. Something relevant to Wikipedia perhaps? —MistyMorn (talk) 22:31, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
The underlying issue, imo, was: Shouldn't a living community receive some of the same sort of encyclopedic respect as living people? (Or, more specifically perhaps, is it encyclopedic to speculate on inflammatory issues regarding an entire ethnic group based on news stories regarding small criminal ring/s?)But in this case the substance seems to have got largely lost in a secondary sideshow debate starring who's calling who what and how, etc. —MistyMorn (talk) 10:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Ok, I run out of willpower, and common sense, and look to see what has been happening on Wikipedia since I quit. What do I see? The issue is being discussed on Jimbo's talk page - looks hopeful at least. But no, we still have idiotic comments like this being posted: "But RFC is the place for that petition; not ANI. Just like I have no right to get frustrated when I submit a 30,000-signature petition to lower the speed limit in my neighbourhood to the Federal Government - it's not their bailiwick, so it was misplaced". This is precisely the problem with Wikipedia admins - any excuse to avoid addressing the real issues, and engage in amateur bureaucratics instead. I didn't start the thread at AN/I in the first place. Fae did - and right from the start everyone was piling in with 'NPA', 'AGF' and every other TLA that was to hand. Yes, I let emotion get the better of me, and said in plain language what others would have probably disguised with pretentious pseudo-civility, and yes, I deserved to be told off for it. But how many of those contributing in the AN/I thread were actually interested in looking at the underlying issues that led me to blow my top, rather than spouting the usual platitudes about policy, adding their own vacuous opinions about who-knows-what, or looking for any excuse to hide what was going on? Precious few, by the evidence available. Sadly, Wikipedia provides further conformation of Max Weber's thesis regarding the inherent tendency of bureaucratic power-structures to dissolve 'common purpose' and replace it by a 'specialisation of labour' that makes it almost impossible for anyone to step back and ask whether the 'rules' are there to actually do anything more than maintain the rule-enforcers. Of course, I demonstrated an astonishing lack of clue, and far more 'good faith' than someone of my years and experience should have done in expressing a scintilla of hope that this might be an exception. But no, predictably, I was wrong. Wikipedia has two fundamental problems. The first problem, POV-pushing 'contributors' looking for a chance to skew every article they can their own way, is basically inevitable (and we all have a POV anyway, and the world would be a strange place if we didn't). The second problem though is one that Wikipedia creates all for itself through the bizarre way it simultaneously advocates an anarchic and utopian 'ignore all rules' ethos on the basis that this is the best way to actually write an encyclopaedia, while at the same time producing endless reams of 'policy' and 'guidelines' which can only be ignored at the risk of being blocked or banned from contributing. The end result is that article content is determined not by encyclopaedic value, or even by a vague consensus of what is 'right', but instead by bloody-minded Wikilawyering, grind-the-enemy-down sock-and-meatpuppetry, and a careful attention to the details of the rules, with an eye on finding the best way to subvert their intent. So what is the end result? A Wikipedia article on an ethnic minority that has already got more than its fair share of problems (the misnamed British Pakistanis, most of which are actually third-generation or so British), which sets out to portray the entire ethnicity as paedophiles based on an isolated series of events in one part of the country - with this 'portrayal' seemingly motivated by a political agenda with roots in another part of the world entirely, and with utter disregard for any concerns for either 'neutrality' or basic human decency - all actively enabled by a bureaucratic system for the administration of encyclopaedic content that cares more about the system than the encyclopaedia. Given that both a degree in anthropology, and a modicum of common sense, suggest to me that there is no simple 'fix' for the sort of deep-seated structural problems that are evident in the way Wikipedia content is regulated, I am probably best advised to look back on this as an exercise in participant observation, and put it behind me as a lesson in the blindingly-obvious - that a 'neutral' encyclopaedia in a 'non-neutral' world is an impossibility, and that precious few 'contributors' are actually trying to achieve that anyway, and that to pretend otherwise isn't going to fool anyone but the faithful. I've given up trying to fool myself over this, and have evidently made the best choice by deciding to take my foolishness elsewhere. Meanwhile, one last thought for BWilkins - if I'd taken AnkhMorpork to RFC/U, or whichever part of the bureaucratic labyrinth that I supposedly should have done, do you think there is the slightest chance things would have turned out differently? Or would the TLAs all have been spouted, and the problem ignored as usual? And if you conclude that it would have turned out differently, are your conclusions based on evidence, or faith? Or merely on the smug reassurance that admins administrate, and all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:19, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
I find my recent request draws an irresistible study for the groupthink fans. I now see more clearly why so many intelligent people have given up the drive to improve wikipedia's systemic problems, and note with some amusement that leaving wikipedia to take up an easier challenge, such as addressing the problems of 9/11 would seem refreshingly simple by comparison. Penyulap ☏ 14:47, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Whenever an incident at WP:ANI fails to reach consensus to ban/block, then consider a long-term analysis of issues at WP:RFC/U (which cannot block/ban but can investigate detailed evidence). The short-term posting at WP:ANI, of 2-to-5 days, often does not allow time to cross-check the history of questionable edits by some users. Unless the violations are obviously extreme, then many people seem to oppose the suggested sanctions within the 5-day debates at ANI. Hence, the next option is to investigate people (or WP:TAGTEAMs) who might be slowly "WP:Gaming the system" and that type of long-term activity could be discussed, for weeks, at WP:RFC/U, even though no sanctions would result there. However, at least other editors could see evidence of long-term policy violations or bad-faith edits, to later support sanctions at ANI. Some forms of WP:GAMING can take weeks to discuss.The complexity of WP:GAMING must be analyzed, in a long-term view, in all fairness to real mistakes (rather than clever misdirections), with time to allow other users to better understand all the tactics being used to manipulate the contents of articles. Such a long-term view should be attempted at WP:RFC/U, rather than during a short 5-day ANI debate. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:21, 21 May, expanded 03:08, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
The content-related message which got smothered here regards, I suppose, WP:BLPGROUP. The policy statement recognizes (rightly I think) the complexity of the issue and the necessity of considering context: The extent to which the BLP policy applies to edits about groups is complex and must be judged on a case-by-case basis. However, I'm not so sure that this next statement invariably holds true: A harmful statement about a small group or organization comes closer to being a BLP problem than a similar statement about a larger group. Imo, it's scarcely necessary to resort to Holocaust scenarios to question this notion. To my knowledge, study of ethnic communities almost invariably raises complex ethical issues (a quite different example is briefly summarized here).In the case in hand, content on controversies regarding scientifically unstudied generalizations were being appended to a wp page dedicated to a large ethnic community, based solely on recent news items. Irrespective of the incidents involving both gf (eg ATP & AM) and bf editors, I do not believe that such material should be considered encyclopedic (ie "notable" in the context of this general article).
Query: Does the wording of WP:BLPGROUP need revisiting? —MistyMorn (talk) 15:27, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Look, I want to make one thing clear. I was making a specific query here on Jimbo's talk page in the spirit of trying to get to the bottom of a question which seems to me to be genuinely relevant for Wikipedia. I simply asked whether living communities should be given the same sort of ethical dignity in the encyclopedia as living persons (and therefore whether the wording of a particular part of wikipedia policy needs review). If that question had been raised by a member of the general public not connected in any way with Wikipedia it would still be equally valid. And nobody would be able to retort with wp quibbles, such as hmm, What is your definition of 'fringe'? So I refuse to get into blinkered wp in-bickering when there's a bigger picture out there that, imo, needs to be considered. Clear? —MistyMorn (talk) 21:23, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Also, I was looking forward to asking you for your informed views about WP:BLPGROUP. In relative terms, I suppose ethnic minorities are almost by definition "small" groups (even when their absolute numbers are large), but the current wording of WP:BLPGROUP doesn't directly raise the question of the dignity of minority groups. Anyhow, I certainly agree with you about the importance of WP getting this right. And I wonder if the policy had been worded differently on this whether perhaps you might not have been so cursorily invited to take your "grumps" elsewhere.
Just a thought or two, —MistyMorn (talk) 20:38, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Rileychilds (talk) 16:24, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
Please join me to;
Wikipedia is no longer worth editing. The rewards do not make it worthwhile to the average user. Wikipedia has become monopolized by clique and entrenched special interests that are not interested in truth but who's sole purpose is to push their agenda. Common sense edits are reverted even when sourced. The rules serve the purpose of those Deletionists who wish to censor all opposing viewpoints. Ask your self a simple question; when was the last time you made a contribution to an article of importance without being reverted? I am talking about substantial articles that matter, not articles on movies, video games and other non-controversial stuff but the things an encyclopedia is supposed to have. Simply put, Wikipedia is no longer enjoyable to contribute to, even the most factual contributory edit will be opposed. You add to this encyclopedia at your own time expense with no remuneration. Do you enjoy it? If not, join me in; Boycotting Wikipedia Let the Deletionists have it. This encyclopedia is trash anyway and they will make sure it stays that way. Wikipedia is policed by censors everywhere, and no longer serves the purpose of objective information. For example; any mention of Sarah Palin's sexual affair? CENSORED. Any mention of Che Guevara's war crimes? CENSORED. Objective reporting on Vladimir Putin? CENSORED. It does not matter if the character is a liberal or conservative, there will be a clique of WK users who will censor the information they don't like. You will spend countless hours adding useful and objective information to Wikipedia and in an hour or day or month or year it will eventually be removed for offending someone. They will wait until you are gone and FUCK UP a balanced and factual well cited article, and they will do it in the name of Wikipedia's own rules, ignoring that last and most important one; ignore all rules when editing improves an article. This is because of the rise of Deletionism. A deletionist is supposed to enforce rigorous standards, but in reality they are all just using it as a cover for POV pushing censorship. They forget that Wikipedia exists because of content that has been added, not reverted. They fail to understant that Wikipedia can actually shrink, and will under their influence; therefor BOYCOTT WIKIPEDIA, let them have it, let them destroy it, and maybe a necessary change in policies will come. Besides, why should you contribute to a group that brings you down? --Benjamin 04:10, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
If this is actually based on disputes pertaining to Palin, Guevara, and Putin, I would like to see the contested diffs to judge, please. Also, per the notice at the top of the page, "Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates. Please don't consider alerting him to any topic to be canvassing." 71.212.246.55 (talk) 07:49, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
I'd support a boycott of the over-usage of diacritics on English language Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 03:56, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
I left this on my talk page in response to another POS bully wannabee. I am sure you will get a luagh out of it but in the end it actually make a mark.
How is that an encyclopedic article? Wouldnt that be more Wikinews, than Wikipedia? It is an article that seems... poor in being encyclopedic.97.85.211.124 (talk) 16:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
There's no question you're going to hear about this sooner or later. Apparently Brett Kimberlin is fairly litigious against critics on the web, and very successful at it since his parole from imprisonment as the "Speedway Bomber." After spending about 20 minutes on this, I'm inclined to favor the Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Brett Kimberlin version, modulo a little cleanup and replacement of the Google News sources, which will expire, but it seems the kind of ultra high-profile thing involving an arbitrator and Wikimedia UK official which would benefit from more opinions first. 71.212.251.217 (talk) 03:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear Jimbo, I posted something here and it was archived because it was viewed that after a 3 day ban I was too expert in the use of WP:XXXX rules to be a newbie. It was said "Will be archived: If you ever want to return, Jimbo can discuss this message (and your ADMINISTRATORS comment below) from his talk-page archives." I don't even know what that means. Here is my reply to the person that said that. And then the thing that was archived. The longer article was deleted off the page I put it on. I will glance back at my talk page to see if you have anything to say on this matter. If not I understand that it is not your issue. I would though prefer if you looked at it since that was my point, that people in power beneath you seem to want to bite the newbie to the point that the newbie is leaving and not coming back. They even suggested that my issue was with the WP:3RR rule which was not the issue. As a newbie I didn't know about that, and learned my lesson. It was with the time on the talk page being attacked by a WP:GANG / WP:TAGTEAM which are supported by administrators. So the person who archived my comments of your talk page didn't even get the point. Once I was told of the WP:3RR rule I never even touched the article again. Anyway hopefully you will actually read this before someone else finds a WP:XXXX rule as an excuse to delete it. 86.93.139.223 (talk) 21:58, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
So you understand, I had 3 days of a block to read the many WP:XXXX that were thrown at me, to then understand them. So while it might be hard for you to believe that someone can read in 3 days a bunch of WP:XXXX rules, it is not impossible. Actually I didn't have to read many, just the ones that were used against me to have me blocked. As I found, they were being totally misquoted against me. So yeah, you might find it hard to believe, you might also want to go to the Alkaline Diet article and look at how many people said exactly the same thing as I did in the past on the article. Is that hard to believe? Don't bother answering, just know that you might want to look at the history and deal with it. I don't understand why this was taken off Jimbo Wales' page by someone other than him with a note hard to believe. Isn't that his choice? Yes I would like him to discuss it with me. As I put it on his page with the express comment that the people (like you) who are in between him and me are the problem. So you making a personal judgement that someone can't read a few Wiki WP:XXXX rules in 3 days gives you the right to ignore my very detailed comments. Sorry but this is exactly the reason I contacted Jimbo and not you. Maximus. 86.93.139.223 (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2012 (UTC) 86.93.139.223 (talk) 21:58, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Dear Jimbo, This is a part of a longer post on the Alkaline Diet page called Harry Potter is a Girl. As I am a newbie I don't know how to do links so copied it here. Sorry for taking your space up on your talk page. Also sorry for WP:TLDR. Please delete this if it is of no interest to you. I can't know what is and what is not of interest to you, and following WP:BOLD I am making my statement and you can decide what to do next. I have put it here as I wanted you to know of my experience here at Wikipedia and how after a few days due to repeated WP:BITE I am leaving Wikipedia editing never to return. Because the people between you and me are the problem I thought to go straight to the top. Sometimes the people at the top don't get told what is going on below them. Anyway thanks for Wikipedia. Good luck and perhaps reduce the number of rules / guidelines as I think they are being manipulated and misused. Maximus 86.93.139.223 (talk) 18:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC) Will be archived: If you ever want to return, Jimbo can discuss this message (and your ADMINISTRATORS comment below) from his talk-page archives. See more comments further below. -Wikid77 23:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC) THE ADMINISTRATORS: Dear administrators. As I am leaving Wiki editing after three days of being involved in it. I shall leave you with this information which I doubt you will read or care about, for my own self respect that I said it. I made a comment about the user Ronz for the administrator WormTT to read. As a newcomer to Wikipedia I followed the WP:BOLD rules and made a comment with uncertainty. I did not know if it was appropriate or not and I explained that with the very clear "Sorry if this is not the appropriate way to communicate this, and please fell free to delete and ignore this message if that is the case." WormTT might have said "Thanks I need to know that as I have to monitor that guy." Or WormTT might have said "I don't need to know that, what were you doing telling me that?!" Being a newcomer I didn't know the answer to that question. As there is another administrator dealing with the Alkaline Diet issues there was no intention to bring this administrator into that discussion. Therefore I was not trying to get support against Ronz. And since I'm not returning to Wikipedia editing, this post is also not made to get any support. Now that I have read some of the rules thrown at me these last 3 days, I can say that your comments here are WP:BATTLEGROUND and also WP:BITE. Rather than respecting my ignorance and reading my clear acknowledgement of this ignorance you have instead attacked me. Having been here three days I have noticed that those who have been here longer like to use countless unexplained WP:XXXX links to justify whatever they say, when ignoring those rules the links refer to. I was warned in WP:BOLD to not be fooled by this. I was also told in WP:BOLD to stand my ground. For example one editor criticized me for being impolite by me saying the words "Funny isn't it?" about another user attacking the very source he was defending, when he thought the comment was from me. Then the editor used the word "Bulls#!t" in a tirade against me. Then he sought to have me blocked. It's ok for him to break the rules but not ok for me the newbie. The same editor entered into a dispute resolution process with me while also asking for me to be blocked, thus cutting me off during the very dispute resolution he initiated. This allowed him to make his points with no way for me to respond. Then he claimed he didn't do that, while posting on a discussion board that he was happy I was blocked. Seeing I was blocked he didn’t say to the administrator “He is a newbie, I’m trying to educate him and resolve this, please unblock him.” Of course this block was also supported by the administrator who blocked me who could have seen I was in a dispute resolution process. I don't know how to block someone. But why would I want to? A few harsh words were said to me. Big deal. I'm an adult and I know that sticks and stones can break my bones, but words cannot hurt me. WP:CONS Consensus can only be reached when both sides can communicate, not just one side, because the other side is blocked from expressing their opinion. This would be against the Wikipedia rules WP:TALKDONTREVERT and WP:BOLD. Yet me having real points worth discussing has seen me blocked for a WP:BATTLEFIELD mentality. It's not such a mentality, it is just me knowing what I am talking about, while also being a newcomer. Some more experienced editors who know nothing of the topic are controlling the article as if they own it. See WP:OWN, WP:GANG, WP:TAGTEAM. None of you administrators have done anything to help that newcomer other than block him. Perhaps you could acknowledge my relative WP:COMPETENCE and follow the principle of WP:DONTBITE. And please don’t say that I was offered a mentor to guide me. This guy had attacked me repeatedly without any knowledge of the topic, and rather than wanting to resolve this article, wanted to take me on a journey following him around Wikipedia to see him edit articles I would probably know nothing about. I mean WP:WTF? Having had 3 days to look over the rules I have seen that most of what experienced editors claim against me are followed by WP:XXXX, yet they are not in line with the actual rules they quote. Once I looked up the rules I saw that they were often acting totally against the rule they were quoting. Fortunately an administrator has taken up my points as he knows the rules and knows that the comments against me were false. Since the administrator cannot easily be blocked the people that blocked me have had to actually communicate with him. Having seen them do that, they now agree to my points about the article. This only happened when those points came from an administrator, not me. I now see the WP:TAGTEAM that blocked me twice have been defeated by an administrator. With your help though they were able to block me twice, directly against the principles of WP:BOLD and WP:BITE. The debate about the accuracy of one source in the article has been the same for the administrator as it was for me. Yet when this opinion came from a newcomer it was dismissed and I was blocked. When it came from an administrator, who is not even as WP:COMPETENT as me, it was listened to and agreed with. So well done for biting the newcomer and now I am leaving Wikipedia. See WP:DONTBITE. Rather than contributing to an article I know a lot about, it will remain with those people who have no knowledge of the topic, who misrepresent the topic, misquote a secondary source, give it undue weight WP:UNDUE. They have been repeatedly accused of bias, abuse and destructive editing over a period of time by a number of other editors. Just look up on the talk page and you will see this. My original post was added to their comments and Ronz kindly moved it down to the bottom so that I seemed like a lone voice in the wilderness, rather than yet another person with concerns about this article. See WP:GANG. 86.93.139.223 (talk) 18:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC) Looking at this for the first time, it appears 86.93 ran afoul of the WP:3RR rule, one of the few simple bright lines for keeping edit wars under control, and it was discussed at [1]. A 31-hour block was hardly draconian. The topic of his edit-warring was to use a commercial supplement site for information. [2] Despite their claim to be "The Web's #1 Alkaline Diet Source!", it appears other editors were skeptical. ;) Now looking into the topic myself, it may be that there is information favorable to the diet which should be added - notably, see the NCBI search, with references such as PMID 22132958 which appears to support its quite widespread use by gout sufferers, at least in the short term. But when a new editor comes in inserting a source that doesn't meet our specifications over and over, beyond the rather generous 3RR limit, and seems more interested in advocating a viewpoint, perhaps even a specific company, more than getting the article written, well... he may run into that a speed bump or two. Wnt (talk) 21:07, 13 May 2012 (UTC) Thanks, Wnt. I was wondering how Jimbo would follow an unlinked mention of "Alkaline diet" when thrown the rare tangent to Harry Potter. The IP editor had such familiarity with WP shortcuts, and policy details, that it was difficult to believe the "3-day newbie" claims above, which seemed either a joke or whatever. Perhaps it was "4 days" or perhaps 'nuff said. -Wikid77 23:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC) 86.93.139.223 (talk) 21:58, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
SAEDON, you were happy to read a wall of text in order to then delete it completely as a WP:SOAPBOX simply because it did not agree with you. So you WP:LIE here. Besides this was not a wall of text in the initial post. And you are only here to defend your own WP:GANG behaviour. I'm sorry people here like to throw out one irrelevant line and say WP:XXXX at the end. I find that a joke, that people can read that and nothing more. Anyway, you still win. Your blocks and deletions and closing of comments on the Alkaline Diet talk page have defeated me. Your WP:GANG remains in force. Contgratulations for ignoring WP:BOLD and doing a WP:BITE on a newbie. You shall remain in Wiki Dream Land while I move back to the real world today. Maximus. 86.93.139.223 (talk) 04:50, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Worth bolding, imo! —MistyMorn (talk) 11:04, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
if 5 secondary sources say that Harry Potter is a girl and we have no better or equal sources to correct that then we will report that Harry Potter is a girl; we do have a better source. The book - in which it is brain numbingly obvious that Potter is a boy. I think the point being made is that if sources are clearly and unambiguously wrong we don't help matters by following them. No comment on its applicability to the dispute on that page. --Errant (chat!) 11:19, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
I did actually look at 5 websites that were presented to me as primary sources against my point and each agreed with what I said. Those presenting them had no competence to judge their relevance, and I explained this. An admin described my explanations as ranting and WP:BATTLEFIELD and later on blocked me. I also presented three independently published books from 6 years ago or more that agree with my point. I was accused of WP:BATTLEFIELD and blocked. I didn't even want to remove the secondary source, just make a comment that I found it inconsistent with the primary sources I knew of. I was blocked for that. Even when an admin supported me and referred to WP:PRIMARY he was attacked. When I returned from a 3 day block I made a clear case and that was deleted completely on the basis of WP:SOAPBOX. So I gave up. As an advertisement of Wikipedia for a newbie it was pretty bad. I even contacted the author of the secondary source to ask for her primary source and she didn't reply. When I raised the issue of WP:BOLD and WP:BITE I was accused of being a Sock Puppet and a liar about being a newbie. So yeah, Jimbo, this is my issue. The tiny fringe article remains unchanged, people with no WP:COMPETENCE rule the page as a gang, and a guy who read three independent primary sources has been booted off there. If I was the only one I'd understand. Yet there are many comments by others of this behavior on that page and not a single admin has stopped the gang, rather supporting them. Anyway, I've got work to do and a plane to catch. Good luck Jimbo - I like that you don't take yourself too serious and use that name. Maximus. 81.164.44.104 (talk) 13:32, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, this issue reflects a fairly widespread misunderstanding of WP:PRIMARY. As I understand it, this rules out interpretation of primary sources by the editor. However, it seems to me that primary sources are fine for direct quotes (in fact, authoritative for that) and for the screamingly obvious (like HP being a boy). Some people seem to have a "no primary sources at any time" policy, but I take it that Jimbo agrees that this is incorrect? -- 202.124.73.22 (talk) 07:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Jimmy wales, I would like to bring to your attention a serious issue concerning an administrator/user named "Elockid". About a month ago, I was blocked by "Elockid" for "Block Evasion". Kindly educate me regarding this term as I have no idea what it means. All my edits, including the ones that were legitimate and accepted by the general Wikipedia community were undone. I would like you to go through my edits and tell me what was wrong with them. This user clearly seems to have some sort of a bias/prejudice against India/Indians. I hope you deal with him/her in the strictest manner. I strongly urge you to personally go through my edits. I hope my edits will be restored on to the Wikipedia page.
I am appalled at the scale of the misinformation in any article related to India on Wikipedia. Has no one else approached you regarding this issue? I am deeply disappointed at the level of misinformation about a civilization that has given so much to humanity without expecting anything in return. Let me give you an example. In the article "poverty in India", there is absolutely no mention of The British Empire in the "causes" section of the article! I tried to put up this information on the article and my edit was undone by this "Elockid" character. Also, many of India's achievements have been mentioned under other countries and civilizations.
On a side note, I have noticed that there is a VERY heavy bias towards China on Wikipedia in general. I would strongly urge you to go through the introduction in the following book and you will realize that it is a civilization not worthy of much attention:
http://www.amazon.com/China-A-History-John-Keay/dp/0465015808
If Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, as it claims to be, is it not a social responsibility to provide accurate information to the general public. And also, how is it an "Encyclopedia that anyone can edit" if there are museum pieces like "Elockid" who seem to be hell bent on providing their own version of events with respect to world history??
Cheers, from across the border — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.172.215 (talk) 03:47, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Can you appoint a random administrator to review the block of the user mentioned below? (If the current system allows any volunteering administrator to review the block, then that would possibly be a system weakness; one administrator could contact a sympathetic--or allied--administrator and say "I am gonna block this guy, and you stand ready to take the appeal case when it shows up".)
Please consider to have someone look into, if this [8] removal of 13 000 byte from an article's talk page, is kosher.
Please consider to have someone look into, why there is no time limit on the block of User:No parking here. --85.166.141.18 (talk) 13:36, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
The {{unblock}}/Category:Requests for unblock and WP:UTRS systems are supposed to result in uninvolved administrator review of appealed blocks, and usually does. 71.212.251.217 (talk) 18:07, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Awhile back I spoke of a template which seemed to me to be worded extremely well, informative and non-intimidating to a new editor and when Mr. Wales asked me to produce it I could not find it. The discussion was on this page here: [9] Well, here it is Sir. It can be found here:
AfD nomination of __________
An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated article is Family2.0. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Wikipedia:Notability and "What Wikipedia is not"). Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion(s) by adding your comments to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/name of article. Please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes .
You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate.
To me, this is very nicely done and doesn't tend to crush the spirit of the new or newish editor. Mugginsx (talk) 21:50, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Wouldn't it have been right to have taken into consideration all of Rich Farmborough's contributions and value to the project before the decision was made to shut him down? It seems unjust to have taken such a severe action without having weighed the good as well as the bad. These few things he supposedly did wrong were all they talked about. They did not weigh everything he was doing right against the things they didn't like. The many reasons NOT to have taken this action were not taken into account! How could it have been right not to have weighed the cons as well as the pros of shutting him down? Should guidelines be changed to ensure that such severe actions in the future not be taken without first checking to see how much harm they would be causing? Chrisrus (talk) 04:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
@ MuZemike: No, if a user has made a lot of good contributions, it would therefore not mean that they would be immune to any block or action the community of ArbCom dare take. Their good contributions should be among factors taken into account when making such decisions.
@ Dmcq and Elen: You seem to have summarized the situation that led to the decision, as RF having repeatedly refused to cooperate with decisions made by the group, leaving us with no choice but to shut him down forever. This is the type of summary we need for the general community, who don’t all understand the accusations against him. If you would, please expand on this summary a bit, as it’s not easy to understand why the decision was made, and what the dispute was about. We need a bit more detail than you have given, but no more detail than would be helpful for the average reader with no particular technical expertise to understand. By simply looking at the link at the top of this talk page section, it’s not exactly clear what it was all about.
@ Dmcq: You then go on to speak as if you would not have decided this case as they did, leaving me a bit confused as to your position.
@ Elen, Dmcq and Resolute: Let’s accept that Arbcom had no choice but to shut him down. Even so, would you not agree that, if the positive aspects had been taken into account, they might have decided to do something else in addition to shutting him down? For example, the committee could have decided to shut him down, but also to send him a barnstar of thanks or a plate of cookies. Or maybe they could have asked that certain exceptions be made for certain things that might have been important that he might be needed to do if that could be established. My general point is that even if the committee had no choice but to shut RF down, they might have shut him down in a slightly different way had they been fully informed about everything he was doing so that, perhaps for example, the shutdown might be done smoothly and in a less disruptive way for the project. The point is even if they didn't have a choice but to shut him down, they might have decided to also do other things in addition to shutting him down, or to shut him down differently, or to make exceptions if one were warrented because they would have known about project he was in the middle of, such as the one I was working on with him. Or decided to also balance the action with some token of appreciation if it could be determined that such was in order.
@Resolute I'm interested in learning more about the last time this happened and your recollection of it, as I wasn't there. As I read this your post, you may be saying that "supporters" were then allowed to present the person's contributions and value to the project. Although, as you recall, it turned out that those supporters greatly exaggerated the person's value to the project in that case. As you recall, was the supporters' case taken into account as a part of the decision-making process at that time? I understand that it turned out that the supporters were wrong in that case, and the person's contributions weren't particularly necessary or valuable, but it I think you may agree that just because that was true in that case doesn’t necessarily mean that it is necessarily true in this case as well, or in all such cases forever.
You say that, in your judgement, the bad RF did had begun to outweigh the good. How do you know, how did the committee know, that you are right about that if the good was not a factor in the decision-making process? While you seem to be fully aware of all the good he was doing, there is no sign in the link at the top of this section that it was taken into account. By saying that, in your opinon, the bad RF did had begun to outweigh the good, I hear some acknowledgement that such weighing of these two sides would is proper to do, and therein I think there may be an inroad I could take persuade you to agree to support such "good" being presented to the committee making such decisions in the future. Chrisrus (talk) 01:07, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
As one of the people who has commented actively about that case its more than just a matter of wether Rich did what. Its a matter of how the case was brought up, developed and implemented. Several points are so vague even the Arbs can't explain exactly what they mean or how they will be implemented. There are so many flaws and problems with the whole situation that I dare not even bother listing them here. The bottom line is that Rich made some mistakes but the majority of the case was based on reporting of minor edits, many of which would be required to be done if the article was promoted to or beyond GA. Rich was hounded incesently by 2 or three editors who would keep Rich in almost constant debate for months at a time over the most minute aspect of any edit that he did. Arbcom has made a lot of bad or questionable decisions over the last few months on a variety of cases and this is only the most recent. Arguably Arbcom made the decision to ban Rich from automation to protect the pedia but its the pedia that will be punished from a lack of the edits he was doing. Kumioko (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Such committees should consider not only the reasons to shut a person down, but also the reasons not to do so. This case, Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Rich Farmbrough closed, was closed without considering the reasons not to shut Rich down. The other side of the story was not presented. In the future, reasons not to shut someone down should be weighed as well. This is just being careful about such an important decision. We should be more careful next time.
Supporters of the decision may be correct. Maybe the harm Rich was causing outweighed his value to the project. Maybe the committee would have agreed if they had weighed both. We don't know. They didn’t have that chance. So please agree, in the future, such committees should be asked to consider any important reasons not to shut someone down. Chrisrus (talk) 06:16, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Some editors are repeatedly editing Frank L. VanderSloot [10] inserting a claim appearing to link him to supporting "Mormon pedophiles working with children as part of the Boy Scouts of America" which I suggested was a "contentious claim" to say the least. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:57, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Create a fringe-topic article named with an overview-title, such as "Opinions of F.L. VanderSloot on scouting" if the sources actually connect the opinions to scouting, rather than just to groups of young people in general. When a topic is likely to seem to be fringe-related, such as an unusual criminal charge, then the tactic is to create a subarticle (based on the topic being noteworthy in multiple sources). Of course, if only a few sources state an unusual claim, then perhaps leave it off Wikipedia, such as a claim, "Queen Elizabeth I ate live frogs at age 4 years" (really? need strong sources for that, if only one source then omit). If multiple sources, then create article with title "Food preferences of Queen Elizabeth I" (or similar), but no frogs in main article. Similarly, if sources reported that the late Mother Teresa had 6 private lovers, unknown to the Church, leave it out of the main article, and create article "Personal relationships of Mother Teresa" (or such). The general tactic is to create a sub-article, based on many reliable sources, but leave ALL mention of a fringe topic out of the main article. That is why we omit any mention of a "mummy's curse" in the main article about RMS Titanic, but allow multiple-sourced text into a fringe-topic sub-article. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:05, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
An extreme, outlandish concept will generally fail as WP:UNDUE weight to include within an article, as Jimbo noted above; however, some concepts, even if a hoax backed by reliable (duped) sources, are just too preposterous to include in mainstream articles, and should be limited to sub-articles, in the case they will be exposed as hoaxes, with no grandstanding fostered by Wikipedia to repeat outlandish claims in main articles. Meanwhile, there are also misleading combinations of words, such as "Queen to talk about planned abortion after Jubilee". Hence, while WP:UNDUE limits coverage to adequate sources, even then, simply refrain from putting peculiar text in main articles, as an issue of WP:NOTTABLOID. At some point, common sense will reject the notion: "Mormon pedophiles with scouts in Elvis UFO meet Joan of Arc". In fact, scanning the webpage at www.frankvanderslootresponse.com will reveal that the word "Mormon" is not used, at all on that page, while rejecting false claims of pedophiles with the Boy Scouts. Even if sources seem to support notability beyond wp:UNDUE, always beware WP:NOTTABLOID to reject tabloid stories. -Wikid77 07:12, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
I have a problem with a Wikipedia administrator that goes by the name DJSasso. He blocked me for sockpuppeting which I never intended on doing. I have made good edits to Wikipedia hockey articles to make those articles non-confusing, but are then reverted back to its original version before I edited them. I can’t even expand on hockey articles to make those articles not confusing. I don’t have this problem with editing baseball articles, but with hockey articles I do. Hockey editors such as Djsasso wants to have hockey articles be kept short. With hockey articles kept short, the information on these articles gets confusing.
I don’t even know if the International Hockey League (IHL 2.0) which now this league’s article is now called United Hockey League merged with the Central Hockey League. The CHL teams that played in the IHL before joining the CHL which are the Dayton Gems, Quad City Mallards, Bloomington PrairieThunder, Evansville IceMen, and Fort Wayne Komets, their articles now say that the IHL merged with the CHL. There is another problem with the original International Hockey League which ceased operations in 2001. The information in the original International Hockey League article is confusing because it is written like that the original International Hockey League did merge with the American Hockey League which is not the case.
I also have a problem with Richmond RiverDogs article with this paragraph:
This is my version of the paragraph below here:
I expanded the paragraph based on this sentence from the original version:
I also added information about the Chicago Express team in the paragraph. There was also some information removed from the Chicago Hounds article as well.
I don’t have this problem with baseball articles, only hockey articles.
The thing that is galling is not that I "lost" - doubtless that's purely my own incompetence at presenting my case, but that the good work put in by NewYorkBrad, who had to go inactive, was wasted. We (me and NewYorkBrad) were working for a solution - the other parties weren't very interested, until they saw the somewhat draconian proposed decision, then, to give them credit, they did talk about possible solutions. But the whole thing was done in a sloppy manner, recused arbs voting, decision implemented before close, no option to simply turn the bots off, they had to be blocked in mid edit (which is downright rude). And it's fairly clear that - and arbs have confirmed it - preconceived ideas and ignoring my submissions sunk me before I started. When I was refused an adjournment to present a rebuttal, I knew things were seriously broken, and the more I look (I have time to do that now) the more I'm finding is broken. Hints of other problems are bubbling under. Hopefully we can look at these broken procedures and policies and rebuild something workable and accountable, ideally an imaginative, healing and constructive body, rather than one which dispenses the judgement of Solomon. Rich Farmbrough, 09:12, 27 May 2012 (UTC).
So, let's have a "Senior Review Board" with a whack of clerks. The clerks role is to make a list of the admin-related activities each admin has performed in their last year of service (based on appointment date so that it's around-the-calendar). They also do a report of article work over the year. They do a spot check of interactions. They provide a report to the SRB. (we have toolserv apps/bots that do most of this already)
The SRB is composed of a pool of senior admins (who of course are also required to undertake the same SRB process). 3 SRB panel members are appoint to review each admin at random. They review the admin report in private. The pool would be "trained" on the performance review process.
Meanwhile, the admin being annual-reviewed makes their own "best of" and "worst of" list - are provided with the base admin-activity report (minus the spot checks). They are expected to show areas where perhaps they f'd up, and how they have/will improve. They have an exchange with the SRB members who cross-check problems/solutions proposed.
At the end of the process is a report card, with suggested improvements/issues highlighted. The report card is available to the admin, and kept "on file" until the next year SRB.
You could, in theory, then use the report card to desysop (only after X# of poor reviews/no improvement) just like any job. It does give the admin a S.M.A.R.T. set of solutions/advice. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:30, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
We can see evidence of admins losing interest, as logging very few edits, similar to burnout in general users. Another advantage of admin term limits would be the simple avoidance of burnout and meltdown, regardless if they felt the need to abuse their powers as a means to work faster. Beyond the ill feelings of protracted desysop debates, the Swedish WP (at sv:WP:ADMIN) also noted the problem of burnout, or inactivity (Swedish: inaktiv administratörer), as another reason to have term limits. In that scenario, then any admin who fails to acknowledge a re-nomination as admin would be removed from the re-election schedule of the remaining 94 Swedish admins (in 2012). In some cases, the abuse of tools beyond proper usage could be viewed as 2 options: (1) ignoring limits so work can go faster, or (2) actual meltdown beyond WP:IAR expediency, to use admin powers in an irratic or illogical manner. I have recommended mandatory wikibreaks, plus timeout periods for users editing some articles, where per-article edit-limits would reject further edits to an article (or talk-page) for perhaps a forced timeout of 2-3 months. In some cases, I have returned to editing an article, after 3 months, only to find the same group of editors fighting and obsessing over the article, as if not a day had passed in the 3 months. These issues should be decided with the advice of professional psychiatrists or psychologists, to help establish policies, although not making formal diagnosis of specific user behavior, while merely suggesting policies to improve general mental health. -Wikid77 05:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
My consulting fee will be one thousand pounds please. To whom should I send the bill? Egg Centric 14:46, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
My impression was that the process of making people admins in the first place is entirely broken. Having any sort of performance review, vote of no confidence, or similar poll, regardless of whether it's binding, would simply extend the problem with the existing process. 208.65.88.187 (talk) 17:21, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Part of the reason VnT gets a bad rap is the fact "truth" can mean "fact" as well as "belief". A prime example of this was Talk:Conspiracy_theory/Archive_15#The_first_recorded_use_of_the_phrase_.22conspiracy_theory.22_dates_from_1909.3F_WRONG.21 which was reiterated in Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability/First_sentence/Archive_1#Verifiability_Fact_vs_Truth and again in Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability/First_sentence#The_REAL_problem_with_.22not_truth.22_.28Verifiability_vs_belief.29
"The first recorded use of the phrase "conspiracy theory" dates back to a history article from 1909." (Knight, Peter. "Plots, paranoia and blame". BBC News 7 December 2006) met Verifiability by any reasonable standard--a direct quote by a Senior lecturer in American Studies from the University of Manchester in a well respected paper.
"Such a view of the case, if it were generally entertained, would have an important bearing on the conspiracy theory." (Ellis Thompson, Wharton Barker The American: a national journal: Volumes 19-20 May 10, 1890 Page 67)
Clearly by the 1890 American: a national journal, Knight is talking nonsense but instead of a NPOV talk on how to deal with the clear factual error many of the editors went into the Twilight Zone with nonsensical statements like
1. "This is another one of those instances in which "verifiability, not truth" is what matters for Wikipedia. It can be verified that the author claims that the first recorded use was from 1909, whether or not his claim is accurate." (which basically reads it doesn't matter that it can be verified in any source that the phase was used before 1909 because the earlier sources are textbook examples of "verifiability, not truth" and we don't care these earlier sources PROVE later source is demonstrably inaccurate.)
2. "Looking for sources using the phrase "conspiracy theory" is indisputably original research," (How do you find sources meeting Verifiability if simply looking for them is OR?)
3. "Literally speaking, citing early uses of the phrase is OR." (Citing a source is OR.... Huh?)
WP:OR clearly states "The term "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists." Clearly the source exists as well as more reliable sources like a 1891 Oxford University Branch book and yet this type of Alice through the Looking Glass view of what Verifiability and OR mean comes about based on the whole "verifiability, not truth" concept. --BruceGrubb (talk) 06:11, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
If you agree with the idea there are two definitions you might want to chime in over at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Requesting_another_topic_ban_for_User:BruceGrubb which IMHO seems to be the latest example of Wikipedia:Harassment via WP:Wikilawyering ala WP:hound and WP:GAME.--BruceGrubb (talk) 06:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
I need some opnions from uninvolved editors. Please vote support or oppose here Pass a Method talk 21:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
9999. Nice! --Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 11:35, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm taking a few days off for the Jubilee weekend. On vacation with friends and the only internet available is very slow satellite internet. Therefore, I'm spending most of my limited personal and digital bandwidth on some important board discussions. Will be back reading this page and responding to whatever I can after the holiday.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
[This looks like an ad to me, and it's the first edit by User:99_mercosul_mythghoster. I vote to turn off the money spigot and remove it. Anyone oppose? Wnt (talk) 22:31, 2 June 2012 (UTC)]
Does sensational speculation and lurid tabloid journalism - however widely covered - really trump WP:BLPCRIME? At best this should be an article about a murder, noting that Magnotta is the prime suspect. GwenChan 19:35, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
I tried to fix the listing for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Ray that showed 25GB per layer. A single layer disk 25GB, 2 layer 50GB, 3 layer 100GB (BD-XL), 4 layer 128GB(DB-XL). For those of you that can divide 100GB / 3 layers you would know 100/3=33.3G, NOT 25GB ! For a 4 layer disc 128GB / 4 = 32GB per layer, NOT 25GB per layer.
At first it took my edit then I noticed I wrote DB-XL instead of BD-XL so I backed up a page, edited it and saved it again. Then I got a message saying that Wiki doesn't accept original research. I could refer you to the division section on Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_%28mathematics%29. Showing that division isn't new but I think you would take that wrong. I don't know if I needed a reference to show 100/3=33.3 or what it actually wanted. Telling WHAT it wanted to accept it and why it gave the error would be a big help. Saying "original research" is a little vague. I can assure you that 100/3 is 33.3 not 25. I don't have a reference for it !
You need a way to show / report obvious errors like 100/3=25. If you don't believe me then take 3 quarters to a cashier for a dollar and see what happens !
I am very knowledgeable this subject with 25 years Electronics Engineering experience but I think anyone could see a simple math error !
Beginning paragraph needs fixed where it says 3 layer BDXL disk is the same at 25GB per LAYER. 100GB /3 layers = 33.3G NOT 25G 128GB /4 layers = 32GB NOT 25G
I don't know if the message I was sent was automatic somehow but there should be a way to reply / fix it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.210.200.175 (talk) 08:25, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
So, in short, everyone has both the ability and responsibility to correct errors - however, they must appropriately referenced. Always make sure the reference does support your statements. As such, all's well in Wikipedialand (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 00:23, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Jimbo, I know this has already been brought up, but when you get back from your holiday, could you please weigh in on the question of whether Luka Magnotta needs to be renamed per WP:CRIME and WP:BLP1E? The discussion is primarily centered at Talk:Luka_Magnotta#Renaming_the_article:_Murder_of_Lin_Jun. Thanks. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 07:03, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
I couldn't find a better place to ask this question so I guess this may be the default. Recently I came across some Bobby Fischer quotes on Wikiquote, example: Bobby_Fischer#On_Jews: They are subhuman. They are the scum of the Earth. When you talk about Jews, you're scraping the bottom of the barrel of humanity. I know about WP:NOTCENSORED etc. but is this the kind of stuff Wikiquote should be hosting on WMF servers? Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 14:19, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
First cent: To the original poster, who opened with "I couldn't find a better place to ask this question...", one might begin at Wikiquote. It is a small community, and its Village Pump is open to all.
Second cent: Speaking only for myself, WP:UNDUE rarely becomes a problem when people pay attention to Wikiquote:Quotability. When people add quotations in order to document a point, such as whether someone is a demon or a saint, we end up with garbage articles that lack quotability. This is not to say that invective or hagiography are never quotable, there are some brilliantly said examples to be found in Bartlett's Familiar Quotations, but "recording and reporting" mass quantities of garden variety expressions of such sentiments to document a point has no place in a dictionary of quotations.
Third cent: There are some at Wikiquote who do not share my perspective on the importance of how Quotability relates to the very purpose of the project. If I may be forgiven an ad hominem observation, some seem to be displaced POV pushers from Wikipedia.
(That was 3¢. Keep the change.) ~ Ningauble (talk) 01:15, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I’m being asked if the draft available for edit here: Talk:NXIVM/Archive 1#Forbes_coverage describes #3 at Talk:Keith_Raniere#Press well enough for it to appear in the mainspace of the article NXIVM . However, I live just a few miles from him and it and have read so much of this material that I don’t feel comfortable editing the article. Also, you have asked me not to edit the mainspace. Nevertheless, I am as you know alarmed by the coverage and feel the matter to be of great importance. Thank you for all you have done with regard to this serious and difficult matter. What should I do next? PLEASE help me find someone who would work with them on this. I will be available as a reference librarian or some such but I can’t edit stuff for the mainspace. Chrisrus (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I am having trouble with
"But there are cases where the consensus of thoughtful editors is that the reliable sources are in fact wrong - this is not uncommon - and in such cases what we generally do is go with the truth - certainly that's what we should do."[33]
This assumes that the judgement of a group of random editors is superior to the judgement of a group of reliable sources. At one time it was widely believed that a primary cause of peptic ulcers was psychological stress (not to be confused with chronic stress). Yet there never was and never will be a clinical study that links the two, because we now know that most peptic ulcers are caused by Helicobacter Pylori infection.[34] (Barry Marshal won a Nobel Prize in 2005 for discovering this.[35])
It would not be difficult to gather a consensus of thoughtful editors that believe that peptic ulcers are primarily caused by psychological stress, and indeed the Wikipedia page on peptic ulcers (which tends to attract editors who have peptic ulcers) disagrees with the Helicobacter Pylori and Barry Marshall pages (which tend to attract editors who are scientists or doctors). --Guy Macon (talk) 19:09, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
If one is a conscientious academic and one comes across a self-published monograph or volume on, say, the cattle-driving practices of the Fancher-Baker party (entirely a fictitious example, btw) by an expert in Arkansavia (Arkansasiana?) who nonetheless is not credentialed nor otherwise published, would that conscientious academic "mine" the result of the countless hours spent by the Arkansas studies fanboy/girl and use hi/r scholarly citations w/o crediting hi/r?
Yet this is what, in practice, Wikipedia does, according to its guidelines. wp:SELFPUB says that if someone is not published elsewhere, that person's work cannot be cited. Furthermore, some WPdians are so anti- self-publication, they would object to credit being given to (to crib from my hyphothetical above) the most exhaustive article ever written on the ill-fated emigrant train originating in Arkansas and traveling westward on the Old Spanish Trail: with hypothetical WPdian user:Call Waiting's objection being that its self-published author, Elly May Clampett (a Ph.D. in Classics who has published a well-received work on Livy at Cambridge University Press and also a work of Arkansas history at a university press in that state, who has also penned scores of articles published in peer-reviewed journals in Arkansas history) wrote an award-winning book on the greater topic of 19th-C. Old West migration from Arkansas had this work published by the premiere publisher of scholarly works about Arkansas topics, yet, alas, the award is minor, as historical awards go, being presented by the Assoc. of Arkansavian Letters, and the publisher is not affiliated with an institution of higher learning so hence is, quote, not an academic press.
According to the guidelines, as soon as one demeaning Wikipartisan objects to a self-published source, it is deemed "controversial," by definition (despite that no assertions by that source, nor any of its sourcing has been specified as being objectionable); and cannot be used on Wikipedia--resulting in WPdia's essential plagiarism of this academic's sourcing in any competent expansion subsequently given the Fancher-Baker party WP article. (Remember, all this is hypothetical. However, it mirrors real life. See here: the Noticeboard#Todd_Compton.27s_self-published_paper_on_the_Romney_family.)
--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 16:39, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Politico has an article called Solyndra controversy debate rages on Wikipedia. Brian 5527 (talk) 00:57, 8 June 2012 (UTC)