Template talk:Pasta

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This template was considered for merging with Template:Noodle on 29 September 2013. The result of the discussion was "no consensus".

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Pasta companies

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Adding a list of companies to the templates should be considered non-neutral point of view. On what basis some companies are included while some others are excluded? There are dozens of companies in Italy alone. --Enok (talk) 07:15, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-28T07:15:00.000Z","author":"Enok","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Enok-2013-10-28T07:15:00.000Z-Pasta_companies","replies":["c-Jerem43-2013-10-28T08:04:00.000Z-Enok-2013-10-28T07:15:00.000Z"]}}-->

Do they have articles? Are they notable? --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 08:04, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-28T08:04:00.000Z","author":"Jerem43","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Jerem43-2013-10-28T08:04:00.000Z-Enok-2013-10-28T07:15:00.000Z","replies":["c-Enok-2013-10-28T08:42:00.000Z-Jerem43-2013-10-28T08:04:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Jeremy"}}-->

Having an article on the English Wikipedia is certainly not something that defines the relevance. For example, I have never heard of any of those American companies, and probably an American doesn't know the companies that are on the pasta business since the 19th century. However, it's precisely the idea of a list of companies that is NNPOV.--Enok (talk) 08:42, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-28T08:42:00.000Z","author":"Enok","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Enok-2013-10-28T08:42:00.000Z-Jerem43-2013-10-28T08:04:00.000Z","replies":["c-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T09:33:00.000Z-Enok-2013-10-28T08:42:00.000Z"]}}-->

There are several concepts being mixed here. The article List of pasta companies may have mention of international companies (with references to books/magazines to establish why they are in the article). The template Template:Pasta has mention about the companies that have a Wikipedia article. Each of these articles must meet Wikipedia standards for Wikipedia:Notability. jmcw (talk) 09:33, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-28T09:33:00.000Z","author":"Jmcw37","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T09:33:00.000Z-Enok-2013-10-28T08:42:00.000Z","replies":["c-Enok-2013-10-28T09:40:00.000Z-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T09:33:00.000Z"],"displayName":"jmcw"}}-->

Templates, like articles, must still follow the pillars of Wikipedia. If in the English version of Wikipedia there are only a few pasta companies, not even the most relevant, it isn't correct to list them, de facto excluding all the rest. It's no coincidence that templates of this kind don't exist.--Enok (talk) 09:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-28T09:40:00.000Z","author":"Enok","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Enok-2013-10-28T09:40:00.000Z-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T09:33:00.000Z","replies":["c-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T09:52:00.000Z-Enok-2013-10-28T09:40:00.000Z"]}}-->

I agree that templates and articles must follow the pillars of Wikipedia. Templates are navigational aids to existing articles. If you feel that the multiple POV are not represented, please write a list article or even articles about individual companies. Then they will be valuable in the navigation template. jmcw (talk) 09:52, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-28T09:52:00.000Z","author":"Jmcw37","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T09:52:00.000Z-Enok-2013-10-28T09:40:00.000Z","replies":["c-Enok-2013-10-28T10:01:00.000Z-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T09:52:00.000Z"],"displayName":"jmcw"}}-->

It's virtually impossible to make a list of that kind including all the world. This template from Italian Wikipedia is only about Italian pasta companies.--Enok (talk) 10:01, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-28T10:01:00.000Z","author":"Enok","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Enok-2013-10-28T10:01:00.000Z-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T09:52:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Yes, a complete list is probably impossible but to start the list would have value: the article List of pasta companies could be included in this template. By the way, even a famous company like it:Raviolificio_Lombardini has no references to establish its notability - that article would have trouble in this wikipedia<g>. jmcw (talk) 10:33, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-28T10:33:00.000Z","author":"Jmcw37","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T10:33:00.000Z-Pasta_companies","replies":["c-Enok-2013-10-28T11:59:00.000Z-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T10:33:00.000Z"],"displayName":"jmcw"}}-->

What kind of reference do you expect for a pasta company? Why do you consider Lombardini less relevant than La Rosa and Sons? Anyway, this is the official site. --Enok (talk) 11:59, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-28T11:59:00.000Z","author":"Enok","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Enok-2013-10-28T11:59:00.000Z-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T10:33:00.000Z","replies":["c-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T18:40:00.000Z-Enok-2013-10-28T11:59:00.000Z"]}}-->

What kind of references? A Wikipedia:Reliable sources reference in order to establish Wikipedia:Notability. V. La Rosa and Sons Macaroni Company has them and it:Raviolificio_Lombardini does not. Relevance is not in dispute. jmcw (talk) 18:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-28T18:40:00.000Z","author":"Jmcw37","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T18:40:00.000Z-Enok-2013-10-28T11:59:00.000Z","replies":["c-Enok-2013-10-29T03:33:00.000Z-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T18:40:00.000Z"],"displayName":"jmcw"}}-->

What reliable reference has "La Rosa and Sons" to establish its notability? I only see a self-released book and another about Italian emigrants in New York. The only difference with the Lombardini company (and all the other more famous companies) is that someone has taken the time to create the article. This is exactly the reason why, here on English Wikipedia, nobody creates this kind of lists in templates.--Enok (talk) 03:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-29T03:33:00.000Z","author":"Enok","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Enok-2013-10-29T03:33:00.000Z-Jmcw37-2013-10-28T18:40:00.000Z","replies":["c-Jerem43-2013-10-29T04:55:00.000Z-Enok-2013-10-29T03:33:00.000Z"]}}-->

If you feel that there are companies that do not have articles and should, then write them. If there are articles that do not meet the standards of inclusion, then fix, challenge, or point them out by tagging them with the appropriate template. If you feel there is enough information for a separate article or template create them.

Yes, there are hundred if not thousands of pasta companies, but not all of them are notable. Just because you feel that this should not be part of the template doesn't mean there is consensus for it not to be included here. As to last your comment, "other crap exists"/"other crap doesn't exist"/"no one else does/doesn't this" are poor arguments. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 04:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-29T04:55:00.000Z","author":"Jerem43","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Jerem43-2013-10-29T04:55:00.000Z-Enok-2013-10-29T03:33:00.000Z","replies":["c-Enok-2013-10-29T08:24:00.000Z-Jerem43-2013-10-29T04:55:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Jeremy"}}-->

We are discussing about the necessity of a list of companies inside a template (very rare thing on Wikipedia). I don't have time and desire to create dozens of articles about the pasta industry. --Enok (talk) 08:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-29T08:24:00.000Z","author":"Enok","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Enok-2013-10-29T08:24:00.000Z-Jerem43-2013-10-29T04:55:00.000Z","replies":["c-Jerem43-2013-10-29T08:29:00.000Z-Enok-2013-10-29T08:24:00.000Z"]}}-->

Then if you do not wish to resolve the problem, the don't complain about it. Further who says corporations are not included in templates? And why should they not appear. Don't say that doesn't exist, as it is a bad argument point.--Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 08:29, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-29T08:29:00.000Z","author":"Jerem43","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Jerem43-2013-10-29T08:29:00.000Z-Enok-2013-10-29T08:24:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"Jeremy"}}-->

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Pasta companies on template

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An editor recently removed pasta companies & organizations from the template without discussion. I support keeping that on the template & support re-adding it. This is to expand the scope of the template beyond just pasta shapes & cooking. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 15:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-29T15:49:00.000Z","author":"FieldMarine","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-FieldMarine-2013-10-29T15:49:00.000Z-Pasta_companies_on_template","replies":["c-Jerem43-2013-10-29T18:40:00.000Z-FieldMarine-2013-10-29T15:49:00.000Z"]}}-->

Agree - I wholly agree with this per WP:BRD. This should have been discussed, as of now (per the preceding conversation) the editor who made the change has not been able to provide a reasonable reason as to why this should not be included. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 18:40, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-10-29T18:40:00.000Z","author":"Jerem43","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Jerem43-2013-10-29T18:40:00.000Z-FieldMarine-2013-10-29T15:49:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"Jeremy"}}-->

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Why there are American companies of pasta?

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Italian companies, in my opinion, are ok because this a national product. But why there are American companies? I guess it should be deleted or you should add other companies of pasta: British, Russian, French, South American, Asian, etc. This is not an American Wikipedia, this is a Wikipedia in English language. --St. Alex (talk) 16:06, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-03-06T16:06:00.000Z","author":"St. Alex","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-St._Alex-2014-03-06T16:06:00.000Z-Why_there_are_American_companies_of_pasta?","replies":["c-Jerem43-2014-03-07T07:31:00.000Z-St._Alex-2014-03-06T16:06:00.000Z"]}}-->

Because there are pasta companies in the United States, and this is a template for pasta. Why should it matter where a company is based? Italy doesn't own the right to pasta. They didn't even invent the stuff - it originated in Asia. If there are companies that manufacture pasta and have articles on WP but are not included, add them. Expand not delete. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 07:31, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-03-07T07:31:00.000Z","author":"Jerem43","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Jerem43-2014-03-07T07:31:00.000Z-St._Alex-2014-03-06T16:06:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"Jeremy"}}-->

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Gnocchi

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Gnocchi were previously removed from this template, with the justification that "gnocchi are dough, not pasta". This of course would sound funny to Italian speakers, given that pasta means dough in Italian. One can take a look at the websites of Italian pasta producers to see that some of them explicitly classify gnocchi as pasta: Barilla, Divella. Further, it is sufficient to quickly skim through one of the references listed on the Gnocchi page, such as Pasta: The Story of a Universal Food by Serventi and Sabban, to see that they too list gnocchi as a type of pasta. Jean ^(t·c) 16:27, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-06-04T16:27:00.000Z","author":"JeanM","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-JeanM-2018-06-04T16:27:00.000Z-Gnocchi","replies":[],"displayName":"Jean"}}-->