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Request to add Hispanic and Latino conservatism in the United States under the category "Movements" and Anti-Islamism under the category "Principles".
129.126.202.49 (talk) 11:35, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Musk, however, may neither perfectly fit in the category of "activists" (in lack of special philanthropy outside of demographics research...) nor the "commentators" one (as Twitter otherwise doesn't suffice either...)
Biohistorian15 (talk) 01:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It feels a bit oversimplistic to include this magazine in this list, given the sort of eclectic makeup of its founders and contributors. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 05:12, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I made some recent additions that were partially reverted. Here I'm including my rationale for each:
Mel Bradford: Bradford was an important paleoconservative scholar. In 1980, he was tapped by Reagan to chair the National Endowment for the Humanities. Bradford's nomination was fiercely opposed by neoconservatives in Reagan's circles due to Bradford being in many ways a defender of the Confederacy and the antebellum South, causing Reagan to eventually withdraw his support for Bradford's nomination. This event is to this day seen by many paleocons as a definitive "stab-in-the-back" moment which ignited the feud between paleos and neos, the "original sin" of the Reagan administration against traditional conservatism, and was widely decried by other prominent conservatives on Bradford's side, like Kirk and Buchanan. Besides the importance of this event, Bradford himself made interesting contributions to conservative theory through his novel interpretation of the Declaration of Independence (he interpreted Jefferson as a fundamentally conservative thinker, reading "men" in "All men are created equal" to mean not an equality between individuals but rather between peoples), and made a staunch defense of the Anti-Federalist tradition in conservative thought. I think his inclusion is important also to give balance to the list; paleocons are underrepresented, as are Southerners. To a non-US reader this may not seem important, but the American South forms basically a distinct nation within the nation, with its own folkways, traditions, patterns of life and thought, and these are often in some degree of tension with the broader US. It is a representative of an older, more aristocratic and European order.
Willmoore Kendall: I think this should be the least controversial. Kendall was a founder of National Review, the most important organ in the history of the American conservative movement. He strongly influenced his students and fellow NR cofounders Bill Buckley and L. Brent Bozell. He articulated a distinctly democratic conservatism highly influenced by a conservative reading of Jefferson which privileged the position of land and place over numerical majoritarianism. And he has an entire chapter devoted to him in George H. Nash's "Conservative Intellectual Movement in the United States since 1945," widely considered the standard and still definitive history of the conservative movement in academic historiography.
R. R. Reno: This might be a recency bias, but he is the editor of First Things and has been for well over a decade. FT is the leading journal of the religious right in America. Reno has not been a mere suit, but has indeed shifted FT's editorial line away from the magazine's traditional neoconservatism and towards national conservatism / populism. He has spoken at all of the National Conservatism conferences, he has written a well-received book ("The Return of the Strong Gods") which explains and defends the rise of national conservatism in the past decade, and he sits on the boards of FT and American Affairs. In any case, he certainly seems more deserving of inclusion in the commentators list than, for example, Brandon Tatum.
Let me know what you think. Feel free to also ask me about any other additions, I'd be happy to provide my reasoning for any of them. Thanks! GreenLoeb (talk) 22:33, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we've done a lot of good work over the past couple years to make this template one of the best politics templates on Wikipedia; it is in any case in far better shape than the US liberalism template. But I still think the politicians section is plagued by bloat, and recency bias. I would think that, to be included on the pols list, one would need to have been a major US conservative politician who is widely agreed to have had a significant impact either on the nation or on the conservative movement. Some of the current choices do not, to me, appear to meet this: Steve Forbes (a never-elected and twice-failed Republican presidential candidate who was more a libertarian Republican than a stalwart conservative), Masters (I campaigned for him and think he's a genuine conservative, but he has never won any office and has disappeared from public life since his last election bid), McDonald (a conservative no doubt and even a Bircher, but I'm not sure he's notable enough for inclusion), and Dan Quayle (a faintly remembered one term VP from thirty years ago), to name but a few.
There are also plenty on here who are currently in office but their significance is not really determinable. Haley, the two Scotts, Scalise, Kevin McCarthy, Mark Meadows, Mike Johnson, Liz Cheney. I'm fine with keeping these so long as they hold office or remain relevant public figures, but we need to be sure they are duly removed once they lose relevance.
I have gone ahead and removed a few who I see no argument for keeping, like Kevin McCarthy (he is no longer in Congress), Masters, and Forbes. But let me know what you think. Perhaps the best route is common sense, or perhaps we wish to hammer out a way of determining relevance for inclusion more strictly. GreenLoeb (talk) 18:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the past month, this template has jumped from being transcluded on ~370 pages to ~420 with no signs of stopping!
This is not necessarily a bad thing and thankyou to those maintaining it. But the growth needs to be deliberate and I just wished to draw attention to the recent trend to make sure everyone is cognizant of it.
Per WP:NAV-WITHIN:
The goal is not to cram as many related articles as possible into one space. Ask yourself, does this help the reader in reading up on related topics? Take any two articles in the template. Would a reader really want to go from A to B?"
Should the template become too enormous, it will cease to be useful.
I would also note that nav templates are intended to be transcluded in pages which are also listed in the template. Can we please avoid speculatively spamming it across pages on the basis of "considering inclusion". Add it to the page when the page is added to the template!
Please also note Wikipedia:Avoid template creep. This article has been shoehorned into articles such as Property rights which cannot in fact be described as "part of a series on Conservatism in the US" and often already contain more appropriate templates such as Template:Conservatism or Template:Rights. Property rights certainly are a Conservative principle. But they're also principles of other political systems and we don't want to spam those "generic" top level articles with US-specific templates. It might be necessary to make an exception for some of those where we don't actually add the template to the article even though the article is listed in this (and a bunch of other) templates. Thanks again! Hemmers (talk) 16:37, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi all, I thought I would start a new topic on the talk page where we can hash out disagreements going forward whenever we add people to the infobox. This will be an easier way to achieve consensus than going back and forth in our edit descriptions. Let's keep this thread here and use it as a general place to hash these things out going forward.
I see there has been some debate between @Biohistorian15 and @Trakking about the inclusion of Sam Francis. I wanted to say here I am in favor of keeping Francis. I understand why he seems fringe to Trakking, as a non-American, because his article's lede characterizes him right off the bat as some kind of evil white supremacist Nazi. I think this is ultimately not a fair characterization of him or his thought; it is unfortunate that Wikipedia considers the SPLC a reliable source, but sadly its status as a RS is unlikely to change any time soon. Biohistorian is correct to say that Francis is, in many ways, the chief thinker of paleoconservatism and the seer of the "Buchanan moment." Several pieces in the past few years have illustrated his centrality to conservatism over the past three decades, with many seeing him as a prophetic figure who foresaw back in the 1990s the emergence of the populist nationalism that would come to dominate American conservatism since 2016. The first thing that comes to mind affirming my view of Francis here is John Ganz's excellent article "The Year the Clock Broke" and the recently published book "When the Clock Broke." Also, Matthew Rose's "A World After Liberalism" backs me up here. However, if you like, I'd be happy to provide some other sources to solidify my claim in favor of keeping him. GreenLoeb (talk) 22:08, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed that Walter J. Ong is counted as a conservative intellectual. I'm a bit familiar with his work, but the parts of it I've read don't scream "conservative" to me. Can I ask someone (preferably Biohistorian15, who added him) why he's there? RadarStorm (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 01:32, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed that Biohistorian15 added the template to Flannery O'Connor with the edit summary "Cf. template for discussion". I have been unable to find this discussion, and the rest of the article on O'Connor does not explain why she qualifies (other than perhaps being a Catholic writer who lived in the American South). This change was reverted with an extensive comment, and then a few weeks later, Biohistorian15 added the template again, this time with no edit summary at all. I don't know if the reasoning in the revert comment is persuasive, but at least the reasoning has been shown there; may I suggest offering your own reasoning why the template deserves to stay? Metaclassical (talk) 23:09, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the past month this template has jumped to being transcluded in over 520 articles, many of which are not linked from the template itself. These are not simply articles that have been removed from the template but not cleaned up - the template has been transcluded as "relevant".
I have wound back some of these in accordance with the policy of WP:BIDIRECTIONAL ("Every article that transcludes a given navbox should normally also be included as a link in the navbox, so that the navigation is bidirectional"). The point of navboxes is to create a web of the core related topics.
I have received a representation however that by transcluding the navbox in other articles "they can surely serve as a useful extension of the "See Also" section".
This is out of step with WP's established policies, and is problematic because it presumes that more outbound links are more useful. But to be useful to humans, the article needs to link to the most relevant topics and strike a balance between "enough to be useful but not overwhelming" - sticking in tangential navboxes may cross that line, which is why BIDI exists.
Nonetheless, it is worthy of discussion because there are cases where the template should not be transcluded in an article that it does link to. We should not be dogmatic about WP:BIDI and so I must be sympathetic to the idea that the template could be transcluded in non-linked articles as a route into the web of "core" articles.
But this requires some discussion and guidelines to avoid sprawling navbox-spam - e.g. it would be self-evidently inappropriate to transclude it in the article of every state senator who happens to be Republican - those articles are not about Conservatism and nobody will be including those people in books about Conservatism in twenty years time. (Indeed, most of those individuals are inconsequential to the GOP and Conservatism even when in office - turning up, voting how their whip tells them and collecting their salary. Only a rare few gain wider fame).
So... guidelines. In my view:
When not to transclude even though the article is linked in the template:
When to transclude without linking:
Thoughts? Hemmers (talk) 10:59, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Does he really belong in the "intellectuals" section, notability wise? I don't think he's had much influence on anything and his political views are generally only a curiosity as a sidenote to his fiction writing. Tombomp (talk/contribs) 13:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following are some articles/section links I am uncertain about. I personally have a particularly hard time differentiating the fringe of Southern conservative thought from its mainstream. This is not my area of expertize at all. Accordingly, I won't add anything too controversial. Maybe somebody comes along in the future and has a decisive reason for or against inclusion they want to share:
Other miscellaneous entries I am undecided about:
Regards, Roggenwolf (talk) 12:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Add Brett Cooper to the "Commentators" section. She has links to Daily Wire. Christianhatley527 (talk) 19:09, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi all, what are your thoughts on including individuals who were prominent members of the U.S. conservative movement during their time but would not be considered conservatives today, given the significant rightward shift of the movement in recent history? Within this field would be Presidents Eisenhower and Ford, along with Vice President Nelson Rockefeller (who was arguably the most known liberal conservative in mid to late 20th century) and Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. Yedaman54 (talk) 22:21, 10 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t really see Gabbard as someone to include in this template. She’s only been in the scene for two years, plus her profile and ideas largely mirror that of Trump. She’s also been more of a libertarian (see Libertarianism in the United States), so I don’t see her to be necessarily added to this template. Chipperdude15 (talk) 22:25, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.
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Would someone add: Seven Mountain Mandate, and Quiverfull to Related and New Apostolic Reformation, Apostolic-Prophetic Movement, and Kinism to below Reconstructionism in Movements? — 216.49.130.24 (talk) 21:00, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I removed Booker T. Washington. Although scholarly sources do describe him as "conservative" ... that word is used within the context of the internal debates within African American leadership during the post Reconstruction era. Sources call him a conservative only to distinguish him from "liberal" African American leaders who were more strongly advocating for equal rights. Those sources do not use the term "conservative" to mean he subscribed to general conservative political ideals.
More broadly, within African American historiography, Washington and Marcus Garvey are characterized as "cnservative" (within the context of African American leadership) and W. E. B. Du Bois and Martin Luther King Jr. are characterized as "liberal" ... again, only within the context of African-American leadership.
The word "conservative" has many meanings, but when applied to Washington, it does not mean what this template means.
Washington devoted his life to uplifting his fellow African Americans, and his struggle was aimed at overcoming the racism and bigotry of Southern conservatives. Scholars apply the term "conservative" to him to mean his approach was slower and more gradual than fellow black leaders, not to mean he shared the beliefs of Southern conservatives that blacks were inferior to whites.
If someone want to add him to the template, please discuss here first and provide quotes from sources that indicate that he subscribed to the principles of the Conservatism in the United States article (not simply that the source uses the word "conservative"). Noleander (talk) 18:21, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]