Why does ASDamick revert the addition of Paul of Tarsus and Great Commission to this template as vandalism? Surely this does not fit the wikipedia definition of vandalism and further aren't both of these highly significant to Christianity?64.169.2.96 01:01, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
It's really pretty straightforward. Obviously, Jesus is first, Paul of Tarsus is second, after all some 50% of the NT is his, most significantly because he is not one of the Twelve Apostles, which should be next. The Great Commission should be listed because that is where Jesus gives his command to the Eleven Apostles, which includes to follow his teachings, and his teachings are summarized in the Sermon on the Mount, which themselves reference the Ten Commandments. John 3:16 should also be listed, since that is what most people think of when they think of Christianity. The Trinity is already mentioned, that covers Christology. Likewise, Old Testament, New Testament, and Apocrypha, because those are the significant parts of the Christian Bible. Those are the minimum, to not include them is absurd. This is an encyclopedia, not a soapbox. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.169.7.28 (talk • contribs) .
Paul and the Great Commission may fit better on Template:Christian theology. —thames 15:55, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
More on the significance of Paul: Much as the Great Commission places significance on the Eleven Apostles, and Luke 10 places significance on the Seventy Apostles, Paul receives his commission from Jesus on the Road to Damascus, specifically Acts 26 NRSV: "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But get up and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and testify to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you. I will rescue you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.” ... "After that, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout the countryside of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God and do deeds consistent with repentance." ... "To this day I have had help from God, and so I stand here, testifying to both small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would take place: that the Messiah must suffer, and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles."
Jesus · Apostles · Councils Schism · Crusades · ReformationEcumenical · Evangelical · Pentecostal
Triune God: Father · Son · Spirit Fall · Grace · Salvation · Justification Sanctification · Theosis · End Times Creeds: Apostles' · Nicene · Athanasian
Books: OT · NT (Gospel) · Apocrypha Cross · Ichthys · Icon · χρ · Shield · Flag
Paul · James · Constantine · Augustine Aquinas · Luther · Calvin · Wesley C. S. Lewis · Billy Graham · John Paul II
Advent-Christmas · Lent-Easter Liturgy · Prayer · Apologetics · Music Sacraments: Baptism · Eucharist
East: Assyrian · Orthodox · Oriental West: Anglican · Catholic · Protestant Anarchist · Charismatic · Fundamentalist Hebrew · Liberal · Restorationist
===>Hope this helps I took it upon myself to make a new template, using the suggestions here and comparing it to the kind of content found on similar ones (particularly Template:Judaism and Template:Bahá'í). The pros of this alternative:
Cons:
In my defense:
Feedback? -Justin (koavf), talk 06:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
===>Here's my thinking I went with a broad three-tiered approach: ancient, middle-age, and contemporary. So, for history, I chose three things most important in each large epoch. Regarding evangelicalism and particularly Pentecostalism, I would disagree. Within a century, 100 million people were converted to Pentecostal Christianity, primarily in Africa and South America; I can't think of many trends in Christian history that rival it. The same line of thinking was true for the Lewis-Graham-JP II line of people; they are the three Christians who I would anticipate people would be most interested in knowing about from the 20th century (with the possible exception of Mother Teresa?) One nice thing is, they are all from different faith traditions (Anglican, Protestant, Catholic) although all are Westerners. Thanks for your feedback, though. Regarding the Christian Anarchists, your point is well-taken; their inclusion reveals my personal biases (and the article is really well-written, so it's a shame to take it off.) Do you have any alternative people or historical trends that would replace the current ones? Anybody else have two cents? -Justin (koavf), talk 14:33, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Gnosticism articles are using the Christianity template. Though some segments of the Gnostic circles have been influenced by Christianity, Gnosticism is not Christianity, nor is Christianity Gnosticism, so I thought I'd create a Gnosticism template. I was using this template as a template ( pardon the pun :D ), in the process I accidently edited this template by mistake. I quickly restored it. Sorry about that.
Currently, about half of the Apostles have this template on their respective pages. I've always understood the "part of a series" templates should only appear on pages listed in the template itself. Is that use too narrow? -Acjelen 22:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
===>Go for it Feel free to put this on any article that makes sense, not just the ones actually listed in the template itself. -Justin (koavf), talk 13:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
===>POV Since the central teaching of Christianity is Christ's divinity, to not have it would be POV. You may not accept Christian doctrines yourself, but it's anticipated that in a series of articles on Christianity, the Christian point-of-view will be that Jesus was God's son (whatever that means.) Also, the "part of a series" line, while I also find goofy, is not particularly misleading; all of these articles are about overlapping topics. They may not follow a strict heirarchy or chronology, but they are linked by common themes. I don't see why it should be prohibited. If you want to reinsert the Crusades link, go for it. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 03:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
===>Not really The template is a kind of shorthand for the various articles and ideas assoicated with Christianity, the most important of which being Christ's divinity. By your argument, having the word "God" on the template is POV, since God's existence isn't accepted as fact by all persons everywhere. Or for that matter it's possible that not everyone believes in "sons" so having the word "son" there is somehow written from the pro-son POV. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 03:41, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
===>Granted I have to admit that your argument is more nuanced than I gave it credit, but I would still assert that this isn't problematic, as that is the Christian concept of Jesus. In other words, within Christianity, Jesus is the Son. Again, this is not to say that He actually is, but to say that in the worldview that is being presented, it is assumed that He is. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 04:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Jim, what are you talking about? You're coming to a template about a religion and saying it shouldn't express the beliefs of the religion? —Aiden 16:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
They are clearly the beliefs of Christianity and not asserted as fact. —Aiden 02:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Secondly, all of the other religious templates had "Part of series" titles until you removed them. —Aiden 02:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Jim you're making little sense. It is just as if the WWII article references sub-articles for certain battles. Are they not all part of Wikipedia's WWII content? Maybe even though they were made by different people, could it be? We have many Christianity-related articles just as we have Islam related articles in Judaism related articles. If these weren't categorized as such we wouldn't have this template or any other template. Thus, those are all part of a series of articles on those subjects. I don't understand why you're making an issue of something that clearly isn't, nor do I see how this affects the NPOV of an article. —Aiden 22:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
By the way, what is this? —Aiden 22:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
And what is this [1]? You have addressed only the issue of relatedness, which was never questioned. Nobody has addressed the issue of the related articles being "part of a series" within wikipedia - other than snide comment that it was "magical". Is there a cabal or isn't there? These are navigational templates, not a co-ordinated series of articles --JimWae 05:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with the "related articles" header instead. At least do it to all the other templates though. —Aiden 05:34, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I see once again the template says Jesus was God the Son - this is POV insertion. Only took about 5 weeks for it to happen again --JimWae 04:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Jim, how come you don't seem so bothered by this very same phrase on other religions' templates? —Aiden 06:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Only two active templates have it at present - plus one inactive one that YOU restored for some unimaginable reason, especially given that you said you were OK with the change here --JimWae 06:10, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia doesn't have article "series". The wording is disingenuous and should be removed. "More articles on Christianity..." is at least not lying to our readers, if you feel like some sort of explanation is necessary. --Cyde Weys 06:27, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Why are people reverting here, complaining about lack of consensus, when they have never (or not in a very long time) edited here? Would it not be more reasonable FIRST to see if the regular editors here are generally opposed or not? Aside from that, consensus does not trump NPOV nor accuracy --JimWae 07:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Are related articles that do not appear in the template, less a "part of the series"? Who decides what articles belong in "the series"? This "series" terminology is a POV powderkeg. --JimWae 07:41, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Some works in a series can stand alone -- they can be read in any order, as each book makes few, if any reference to past events, and the characters seldom, if ever, change. Many of these series books may be published in a numbered series, but it doesn't matter if you are reading the third or the thirty-third book. Examples of such series are works like the Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew, and Nick Carter.
I'm coming to this late and am barely interested, but this has been popping up in my watchlist more than anything else lately. I fail to see how the collective articles on Christianity form a "series" in any meaningful sense of the word. Surely there are more productive arguments everyone could be having. TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
- you are saying then (using that definition) that all books on religion published by a company are part of a series on religion. Dictionaries are notoriously incomplete in defining certain words, as they must give short meanings and do not always avoid circularity --JimWae 07:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
- not even all the books Doubleday produces on Xty are "part of a series" on Xty. Some internal consistency is needed to for "a series". Many dictionaries are filled with inadequate definitions - but in this case, they are using "set" in a special sense - an unordered collection of books - even if all on chemistry - is NOT called a set of books. --JimWae 07:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this has been discussed previously but what about a category that lists all articles that actually have the template on them? Like this? Netscott 09:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the category as it serves no purpose. If you want to know what pages use this template, use what links here. Categorizing articles by template rather than by explicit category is highly frowned upon in article space. Additionally, almost all of these pages were already tagged with Category:Christianity or one of its sub-cats anyway, which allows for more specific and explicit categorization. --Cyde↔Weys 14:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Cunado just reverted to the article series thing again and linked to Wikipedia:Article series (which I didn't even know existed). But guess what, Christianity isn't even listed on there! Thus it's most definitely not an article series and this wording is inappropriate! --Cyde↔Weys 21:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I found more pages, Wikipedia:Series templates, Wikipedia:List of article series, I found one template that uses "Topics related to". That seems agreeable to me, but I'll keep looking. Cuñado - Talk 21:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The problem is, the pages listed at List of article series actually ARE article series. Here's one example:
Notice how this is a chronological account of the history of Afghanistan. It is a series. The history of Afghanistan is too long to comfortably fit into one article so it's been broken out by period. It has a well-established order and it was put together explicitly to be a series. This is clearly a much different case than this Christianity template, which is just links to a bunch of related articles on Christianity which are not a coherent series. --Cyde↔Weys 22:02, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Calling a collection of wiki articles that are not specifically co-ordinated in any way a series is like calling a collection of articles in a newspaper that deal with the president written over several years a series of articles on the presidency. It's patent nonsense masking POV attempts to control articles. I have no time anymore to debate this with jackrabbits who seem more interested in reversions than meaningful discussion. Time to take it to arbitration. --JimWae 05:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
The template has sections on "Christian theology", "Christian Church", etc. but couldn't we add a section to the template about Christian politics? Such as a link to the Christian right and the Christian left and other articles about different Christian political movements? Beno1000 18:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Would it make sense to put a link to Books of the Bible in this template? Or would that not work since that page also includes the Jewish canon? /blahedo (t) 22:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
First an observation: seems to me that many of the POV issues discussed above could be best solved by having subtemplates. After all, Christianity is a sufficiently broad topic that Christian theology or History of Christianity or Christian music could easily support their own navigational templates. Maybe some of these exist, I haven't looked that hard, but it seems like a lot of the additions proposed above (e.g. books of the Bible, Paul and other major historical figures) could best be accomodated by a heirarchy of Templs.
Now, that said, I was surprised not to find a navigational template on Nicene Creed. I think there's merit to one on Early church history, which itself could be part of one on History of Christianity. (Of course "History of Xty" is within the scope of this one, but I think there could easily be a similarly-sized template just for it.) Anyone else have opinions on the merits of such a template? - PhilipR 14:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
"Not widely known" is the flimsiest reason I've ever heard of for removing content, even if it was correct. The Septuagint is the most widely-quoted OT translation in the NT, and remains the official OT of the Eastern Churches, or over 300 million Christians. I'm therefore putting it back where it belongs.
Would the article Christian views on contraception be relevant to include in this template? Lyrl 21:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
===>Hardly It's far too obscure. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 03:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I've again removed Category:Christianity. Christianity is far too broad to have a single category for all related articles. Such a category simply isn't useful; it makes it difficult to browse articles related to Christianity as a whole as opposed to those pertaining to some particular branch or practice and there are dozens of subcategories available for subject-oriented grouping. -choster 13:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
There have been NPOV objections to the template claiming (as if it were a fact) that Jesus is the son of God. One problem is, the Jesus article is neutral as to whether Jesus is the son of God or not. I think another problem is an inconsistency in this template. The "God the Father" does not link to an article on the Christian God, it links to an article on "God the father" that discusses various beliefs of God as father. Indeed, we also already have a similar article on views of the son of God. I fixed the link so that "Son of God" in this template links to that article. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:39, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I, personally, have some problems with the template, as it gives not a single Non-Trinitarian view. Unitarianism, Binitarianism, Arianism, Modalism, Ebionism, many forms of Messianic Judaism and Mormonism are all arguably valid expressions of Christianity and should be given at least some mention. Therefore, I propose that "The Trinity" be replaced with "Trinitarianism" and "Nontrinitarianism," as to have "The Trinity" in big bold letters depicts it as the sole, one-and-only option. אמר Steve Caruso (desk/poll) 15:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, I don't completely appreciate the reversion of my changes to the Christianity Template, but I understand your concerns. However, I am a bit hurt that you merely reverted my edit, rather than discuss it on the talk page as outlined in WP:DR: According to policy we must not simply revert changes in a dispute. Before I made that edit, I created this talk page section to discuss things. Nontrinitarianism is not some small minority. Mormonism is quickly becoming one of the largest Christian denominations in existance, and their views are far from Trinitarian. I would appreciate your reasoning behind the reversion, as well as your input so that we may reach a compromise. אמר Steve Caruso (desk/poll) 01:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
A series is an organized collection. A set is a collection which may be organized or may not be. Set more accurately describes the collection of articles in the template - and the collection of articles in the <<category:Christianity>>. Right now we include Yoga and several even more unrelated things in the "series" of articles on Xty. --JimWae 07:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
From Cambridge Online Dictionary:
Wikipedia the publisher (company) has a set of articles which deal with the same subject... ergo they have a series of articles. Netscott 07:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
apple cat hamburger octopus --JimWae 01:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I like it While I prefer the additions to the template (if for no other reason than the fact that they are apparently based on my earlier proposal), I imagine that they're going to get reverted. Does anyone want to talk about leaving in any of these additions first? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 16:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Is Jews for Jesus a valid part of this series? Justforasecond 04:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I misunderstood the question. I thought you were asking whether there should be a link to Jews for Jesus in the Christianity template. Concerning the issue as to whether or not the template should be in the Jews for Jesus article, I am not sure. —Aiden 15:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
How do I add that to another template? I already accidentally messed up this template up once while trying to find what line added that in. I narrowed it down to the second to last paragraph, but I couldn't get beyond that. It looks like my edit stood for about a minute before I managed to revert it, so I could easily have bothered quite a few people. I don't think I'm going to continue trying that, seeing as this template goes out to easily a hundred, possibly two hundred or more articles, and each minute probably creates problems for dozens of people. -NorsemanII 22:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
NPOV Non-trinitarianism is obscure, and it does not deserve to be on a template of the >two dozen most crucial articles on Christianity. What about ditheism? Or Christian monism? Or some other obscure, semi-Christian movement? As for chronological order of Christian denominational families, it is impossible to do that without being POV; we must choose which church was the true one after the East-West Schism of 1054 (Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox.) The only way to be neutral about it is to list them by alphabetical order, as I've done. I'll also list the Assyrians, as they are not included otherwise. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 22:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I think we get into murky water concerning NPOV when we decide which denominations will 'make the cut'. Thus, I think it is best to simply list the three main branches of Christianity (according to Christianity) in order of number of followers. Thus, we would list Roman Catholicism, followed by Protestantism, followed by Orthodox Christianity. Within those three articles a reader can find links to all the various Christian denominations. —Aiden 01:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
There has been a lot of debate as of late over the NPOVness of the Christianity template. The Judaism template does a very nice job of keeping -very- NPOV by including many links in a more compact fashion. The Christianity template could do with some extra compacting, so I move that we see how small we can make it, and then possibly take some pointers from them. אמר Steve Caruso (desk/AMA) 03:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Both these templates appear at Christianity. Mostly duplicated content. Thanks. --Quiddity 00:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Foundations The Lord Jesus Christ God the Trinity (Father Son Spirit) Holy Bible · Christian Theology New Covenant · Supersessionism The Apostles · The Church · The Gospel History of Christianity · Timeline
Holy Bible Old Testament · New Testament Decalogue · Sermon on the Mount Birth · Resurrection · Great Commission Inspiration · Books · Canon · Apocrypha Hermeneutics · LXX · English Translation
Christian Theology History of Theology · Apologetics Creation · Fall of Man · Covenant · Law Divine Grace · Salvation · Justification Sanctification · Theosis · Worship Church · Sacraments · Future
History and Traditions Ecumenical Councils · Creeds · Missions Great Schism · Crusades · Reformation
Eastern Christianity Eastern Orthodoxy · Oriental Orthodoxy Syriac · Assyrian · Eastern Catholicism
Western Christianity Roman Catholicism · Protestantism Thomism · Anabaptism · Lutheranism Anglicanism · Calvinism · Arminianism Baptist · Evangelicalism · Restorationism Liberalism · Fundamentalism · Pentecostal
Denominations · Movements · Ecumenism Preaching · Prayer · Music Liturgy · Calendar · Symbols
Important Figures Apostle Paul · Church Fathers Constantine · Athanasius · Augustine Anselm · Aquinas · Palamas · Wycliffe Luther · Calvin · Wesley · Carey Barth · Graham · John Paul II
Okay, I spent all day making this template ... here is my proposal for the merge. It includes most, if not all, of the links of the Christianity and Christian Theology templates, and most of what is on the alternative template above on this talk page. I have taken great pains to be NPOV and even-handed, as well as comprehensive. I have also added some new content. I think this is an excellent template to replace the Christianity and Christian Theology templates.
I invite your comments. I would like to get some amount of consensus, and go ahead and replace the existing templates, within a reasonable amount of time. GUÐSÞEGN – UTEX – 03:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm going ahead with the merger. GUÐSÞEGN – UTEX – 07:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Hey, why is this link here at all? What is it's purpose? And why is it linked to the "One Holy, ... church"? Why not link it to "Christian Church"? If you want to link it to "One Holy, ... church", then why not write that as the text for the link? I understand the difference between the adjective catholic and the Roman Catholic church. Rob 04:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
As a Lutheran I am flattered that we get our own link on this template... But why is Lutheranism singled out on this template and not so many other major Protestant denominations? I can somewhat understand the inclusion of Anglicanism, since it seeks to strike a balance between Protestantism and Catholicism. But even Anglicanism is listed on the Protestantism page. I feel that in the interest of keeping the template concise, both denominations should be removed. Fishal 21:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I just removed User:KitHutch's addition of Methodism, in favor of a discussion first. It may be a good add, but the reason I didn't include it before is because there are already links to Evangelicalism, Arminianism, and Anglicanism; all of which can lead one to Methodism, especially the first two. I tried to include all major movements (or schools of thought) that weren't already covered by a greater movement, and had a unique contribution that is significantly different than the other movements. Is that really true of Methodism? What significantly different contribution is covered in Methodism that is not covered by Evangelicalism and Arminianism? As an example, on the chart Restorationism is supposed to cover the Cambellite movement, Mormonism, and other movements (instead of having a link to each one). Now, it may be that some already there should be removed. We can discuss that. GUÐSÞEGN – UTEX – 19:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Netscott changed the intro phrase to "Part of a series of articles on" saying in the edit note "(every article that has this template is a part of this alphabetically listed series of articles either related to or on the subject of Christianity.)". I originally had "This article refers to some aspect of". I thought it was an good intro phrase, and it would avoid the major controversy earlier on this discussion page. What do you all think? GUÐSÞEGN – UTEX – 01:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
What was wrong with the plain Latin Cross? This is not really the place for what many will view as a kitsch European Jesus image -- whose details won't be very visible at the size reduction necessary to be incorporated into a template, in any case... AnonMoos 02:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
There are some vertical spacing gaps which are a very undesirable feature in the case of a template like this, where every additional pixel of vertical height increases the probability that there will be negative interactions between the template and the layout of images or tables further down the page, in various articles that include the template... AnonMoos 02:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
It is quite big. We need to make sure we are not linking to articles which are breakout articles of another article. In other words, there is no reason to link to numerous individual Christian denominations when you can link to the main 3 branches or simply to the Christian denominations article. This conserves space without sacrificing accessibility. —Aiden 03:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
View image at right to see how your "04:30, 31 October 2006" version of the template displays in my browser; you've made the vertical spacing problems worse... I wasn't able to get a screenshot of the whole template, since I couldn't get it all on-screen at the same time (it's too tall). AnonMoos 12:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Microsoft Internet Explorer users, please take a look at this previous version of this template. Tell us if it looks distorted, like the screenshot AnonMoos posted above; or if it looks clean, like the screenshot I posted above (or to the right). I get the same look from MSIE and Firefox (like my screenshot). I'm curious to know if the distorted version is unique to AnonMoos, or not. Thanks. GUÐSÞEGN – UTEX – 05:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
It could depend on the choice of Wikipedia "skin" used, as well as the browser... AnonMoos 07:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I just wandered across this template, and I just have to say: it sucks. It is too wide, too crowded, unorganized, and has waaayy too many links. I don't want to work on it, nor will I watch this page or read responses. I just want to say... it sucks. Cuñado - Talk 19:54, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the Unity Church and Charles Fillmore additions. If we include every little movement in the traditions section, then the template will stop being useful. If Unity stays, I can think of a hundred more similar links. Some are already complaining it is too much. The traditions section is for major traditions or schools of thought, not for particular and comparitively small churches. One can get to Unitarianism via the Liberalism link. GUÐSÞEGN – UTEX – 18:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed the link to "the lord" because it pointed to yahweh. That article is off topic here, and it seems like in inaccurate prefix for Jesus, no? (just click the link and read the article). Hope this wasn't controversial, but I am coming here in case there are concerns.--Andrew c 23:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with "Andrew c" -- YHWH (i.e. the Tetragrammaton) is a Jewish name for monotheistic God, but has little to do with Christian-specific concepts of divinity (once you've said that "YHWH=God", you've said about all that there is to say on the matter). AnonMoos 13:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Instead of adding traditions, like Methodism and Unity (as discussed above), we should clarify here. There are never ending calls to reduce this template ... let's not forget that. It is better to remove Lutheranism, Baptist, Conservatism (not a movement distinguishable from either Evangelicalism or Fundamentalism), and Assyrian Church; rather than add new ones. What is, and should be, left are movements that are not only significant in themselves, but cannot be comprehended in another. I'm even nuking my own position here: Baptist. For example, Baptist can be comprehended within either Calvinism, Arminianism, Evangelicalism, or in some cases Restorationism. Likewise, Methodism can be comprehended in Anglicanism, Arminianism, or Evangelicalism. What is listed here are major, umbrella traditions; not denominations, and not church traditions. I'm reverting the previous revert of my paring down. Please discuss here if you disagree. GUÐSÞEGN – UTEX – 22:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I think you should start paring down the individuals first -- they seem to be somewhat arbitrarily chosen. I mean, is William Carey really one of the ten most important people in the history of the Christianity after the 1st century A.D.? How do you judge such a claim in an "NPOV" manner? It will be a lot easier to be less arbitrary in selecting major denominations than it will be to be less arbitrary in selecting major individuals. AnonMoos 23:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't picking on Carey's importance individually (he was just he one that I'd never heard of before who didn't have a Greek or Roman-sounding name). I think that the whole premise of the section is somewhat misconceived, and that Constantine should certainly be taken off, and most probably others as well -- and that it's better to have a link to Methodism than to Wesley, better to have a link to Baptists than to Carey, etc. AnonMoos 03:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
This template is not just the province of four Wikipedians (especially when there is no consensus). We need more voices, especially others who have proven interest or expertise. Please vote in these two categories, traditions and figures: include an asterisk to make the bullet and embolden a short phrase at the beginning of your brief comments that summarizes your position, and sign your entry with four tildes. GUÐSÞEGN – UTEX – 15:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Should it be shorter with just three main branches, should it stay as is with just umbrella traditions or schools of thought (not a list of denominations), should the list be expanded to include any group with numbers regardless of level of distinction, or something else. Let us know. Currently it looks like this:
Should the list be expanded to include many significant figures for every tradition, should it stay as it is, be eliminated altogether because it's impossible to be objective, or something else? Currently it looks like this (without the titles):
I will argue for using the same standards for templates of Islam, Mormonism etc. Andries 16:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
In the subject of inclusion of other links, I think there should be a link to the Pope. Jake95 17:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
For statistical purposes: Groups which self-identify as part of Christianity include (but are not limited to): African Independent Churches (AICs), the Aglipayan Church, Amish, Anglicans, Armenian Apostolic, Assemblies of God; Baptists, Calvary Chapel, Catholics, Christadelphians, Christian Science, the Community of Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ("Mormons"), Coptic Christians, Eastern Orthodox churches, Ethiopian Orthodox, Evangelicals, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Local Church, Lutherans, Methodists, Monophysites, Nestorians, the New Apostolic Church, Pentecostals, Plymouth Brethren, Presbyterians, the Salvation Army, Seventh-Day Adventists, Shakers, Stone-Campbell churches (Disciples of Christ; Churches of Christ; the "Christian Church and Churches of Christ"; the International Church of Christ); Uniate churches, United Church of Christ/Congregationalists, the Unity Church, Universal Church of the Kingdom of God, Vineyard churches and others. These groups exhibit varying degrees of similarity, cooporation, communion, etc. with other groups. None are known to consider all other Chrisian sub-groups to be equally valid. David Barrett, an Evangelical Christian who is the compiler of religion statistics for the Encyclopedia Britannica and the World Christian Encyclopedia, includes all of the groups listed above in the worldwide statistics for Christianity.
Contemporary sociolgists and religious leaders generally consider pan-denominational classifications based not on historical denominational divisions but on current theological positions, organizational alignments, etc. to be more relevant. Such groupings include: Evangelicals, Pentecostals, 'Great Commission Christians', 'C. S. Lewis Christians', Liberal Protestants, Conservative Protestants, Fundamentalists, etc.
Most Ubiquitous Religious Bodies: The religious bodies on this list which are most likely to have a church, mosque, or congregation near you (in most countries in the world) are:
The website United Religions Initiative has defined the Christian family tree as follows:
Bytebear 06:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I added (or rather expanded) a section for Restorationism listing about 5 groups. In doing so, I have had my changes reverted twice. We are coming close to the 3RR rule and I need additional feedback. I am getting some on my talk page, but little discussion here. AnonMoos wrote the following:
By the way, if you look at the discussions above on this page, you can see that I'm not just using template height as a stick to beat you with -- I had extensive previous discussions with User:Guðsþegn over the issue of excessive verticality of the template. In fact, I'm going to delete the "v - e - d" section right now, since that's something inessential to the main function of the template which contributes to the display height of the template box. AnonMoos 17:40, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Stepping in here where a wiser man might fear to tread, I have done a partial revert. I agree with the inclusion of the expanded Restorationism section, since this is a not insignificant movement at least as important as Fundamentalism. However, it's certainly not NPOV to treat mainstream Christian dogma as if it were marginal -- i.e. as if the Restorationist opinion were objectively true. When representing the teaching of any religion, the NPOV approach is to take the mainstream, usually, but not always exhibited by the majority, as normative, and variations from that mainstream as subsidiary subjects. In the case of Christianity, such an overwhelming majority of them are Trinitarians that to treat the Trinity as if it were a subtle point of mere academic theological interest is rather to promote the POV of non-Trinitarians. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Squeezing text in between an image on the left and an image on the right (or between an image on the left and a tall template on the right) only works reliably across a broad range of browsers / window sizes / Wikimedia "skins" etc. when the images involved are significantly smaller than the first three images on the "Shield of the Trinity" article. Furthermore, as a general matter of overall approach, the templates are here to serve the articles, not the articles to serve the templates. AnonMoos 22:27, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I am going to hilight the organizations you want to omit from this list, because you think they are not significant. All data is from Adherents.com:
Religious Body Number of Adherents Catholic Church** 1,100,000,000 Sunni Islam* 1,000,000,000 Eastern Orthodox Church* 225,000,000 Jinja Honcho* 83,000,000 Anglican Communion* 77,000,000 Assemblies of God* 50,000,000 Ethiopian Orthodox Church 35,000,000 Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland (EKD)* 27,400,000 Iglesia ni Cristo (based in the Philippines) 27,000,000 Sikhism 23,000,000 Juche (North Korea) 19,000,000 Seventh-day Adventist Church 16,811,519 Southern Baptist Convention* 16,000,000 Jehovah's Witnesses** 15,597,746 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 12,275,822 United Methodist Church* 11,708,887 Soka Gakkai 11,000,000 New Apostolic Church 10,260,000 Ahmadiyya * 10,000,000 Veerashaivas (Lingayats) 10,000,000 Coptic Orthodox 10,000,000 Sathya Sai Baba 10,000,000 Church of Uganda 8,000,000 Choge Buddhism 8,000,000 Church of Sweden 7,143,292 Church of God in Christ 6,500,000 Kimbanguist Church 6,500,000 Bahai World Faith 6,000,000 Universal Church of the Kingdom of God (Igreja Universal do Reino de Deus) 6,000,000 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America 5,500,000
Top 10 Largest Highly International Religious Bodies These are religious bodies in which at least 30% of their world membership live outside the "core country" (country with the largest number of members). Religious Body Number of Adherents Catholic Church 1,100,000,000 Sunni Islam 875,000,000 Eastern Orthodox Church 225,000,000 Anglican Communion* 77,000,000 Assemblies of God 50,000,000 Seventh-day Adventists 16,811,519 Jehovah's Witnesses 15,597,746 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 12,275,822 New Apostolic Church 10,260,000 Ahmadiyya 10,000,000 Bahai World Faith 6,000,000
Greatest Historical Religious Figures (Steven A. DeVore and Richard Linford, InteliQuest Learning Systems; URL: http://www.4iq.com/people1.htm#list) (Listed chronologically)
Henry and Dana Thomas Great Religious Leaders List Jesus Christianity Moses Jewish prophet Isaiah Jewish prophet Zoroaster founder of Zoroastrianism Buddha founder of Buddhism Confucius founder of Confucianism John the Baptist prophet and contemporary of Jesus Christ St. Paul Christianity Mohammed Prophet of Islam St. Francis of Assisi early Christian theologian John Huss Bohemian Christian reformer; founder of Czech Hussites Martin Luther primary founder of Protestantism Loyola theologian and founder of Jesuits Calvin founder of Calvinist branch of Protestantism George Fox founder of Quakers John Wesley founder of Methodist movement Swedenborg founder of Swedenborgianism Brigham Young 2nd prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Mary Baker Eddy founder of Christian Science Gandhi Hindu reformer and Indian political leader; mother was a Jain
Greg Bear's List of History's Major Prophets
Time Magazine's Person of the Century Poll Elvis Presley 624,574 Yitzhak Rabin 599,557 Adolf Hitler 516,408 Billy Graham 470,477 Albert Einstein 443,630 Martin Luther King Jr. 381,462 Pope John Paul II 372,015 Gordon B. Hinckley* 255,026 Mohandas Gandhi 163,940 Ronald Reagan 81,262
Famous Contemporary Religious Leaders
Special "Millennium Month" Christmas Eve and New Years Eve Guests On the Larry King Show (CNN), December 1999
GO Network's "Famous Religious Leaders and Figures" Leaders listed on the GO Network web portal's Religious Leaders and Figures directory page (as of 21 March 2000; URL: http://www.go.com/WebDir/People/Famous_people/Religious_leaders_and_figures):
The only two lists that don't include Smith, Young, Eddy or Hinkley are polls done by Christian pastors or ministers:
Some Major American Protestant Leaders (Bynum) As listed by Pastor E. L. Bynum, Tabernacle Baptist Church, Lubbock, Texas.
Some Major Christian Leaders and Writers (MisterPoll) List of individuals from the "Christianity Poll," done by Mister Poll (http://www.misterpoll.com/3611932490.html):
Clearly these groups are significant, as are their leaders. Your omitting them is POV, plain and simple. Bytebear 02:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I never said other groups should not be included. I think they should be included. And many of my points were not specifically directed to your comments. Statistics are not POV, and Larry King does show that Mormons are at least on the national if not world stage. Clearly they are well know. Enough to cause offense.
I was looking at this image:
This image is all over articles about Christian denomimations, but the articles themselves don't hold to this structure. Perhaps we should simplify the whole structure to this:
As to whether you (or anyone) think Mormons or JWs are Christian or not, is irrelevant. Just as the LDS Church thinks FLDS or Community of Christ are not really Mormons. All groups still stem from Joseph Smith. Mormons and JW also claim to stem from Jesus Christ, which makes them Christian, regardless of what other Christians think. Bytebear 07:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
A variation on the image: Template:Christian_denomination_tree which includes Pentecostalism. It is uglier but has links. Bytebear 08:19, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't know that I have an inalterable opposition to including Seventh-day Adventists and/or Jehovah's Witnesses and/or Mormons on the template, but before they could be added, plausible arguments would have made for their importance or influence in the overall global history of world Christianity in the last two thousand years (something which is very different than counting present-day number of adherents) -- and that means that they would in fact be directly competing against some groups which may have very few modern adherents, but have a strong importance in the history of Christianity (such as Nestorians).
However, the question of adding these three groups individually is a very different matter from adding them under a restorationist "branch" of Christianity, when in fact no such "branch" exists (since these three groups, and other restorationist groups, have almost no distinctive positive theological tenets shared in common). The diagram Image:Christianity major branches.svg is moderately informative in packing a fair amount of detail into a compact area, but if it gives the impression that there is a restorationist "branch" of Christianity, then it is quite misleading in this respect. And furthermore, the way that Bytebear has included groups of lesser importance under the alleged restorationist "branch" is not helpful -- in a competition for overall historical importance between the Nestorians and the Disciples of Christ, the Disciples of Christ clearly lose. AnonMoos 13:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm trying to follow the dialogue here as best I can but for the life of me, I still don't understand why Mormons, non-Trinitarians and JW's are included in the section about Protestantism. The definition given for Protestantism on the Wiki Protestant page, is that their ideas arose out of the Protestant Reformation. This page mentions some of the main points of what makes Protestants, Protestants.
However, these other groups did not originate from the Reformation. Their groups, which are viewed as heretical to the rest of Christianity (not just my opinion but the opinion of every other Christian denomination and sect), didn't come about until the late 19th Century. In fact, these groups themselves don't consider themselves Protestants but the sole representative of God on earth.
Besides, it's not numbers or influence that matter - it's what are they? The Jesus they represent is not even the same Jesus that the rest of Protestant Christianity embraces. JWs and Mormons don't believe that Jesus is the one true God. In other words, they may call themselves Christian but it doesn't make them a Christian and this definitely doesn't make them Protestant.
There should be a section that discusses fairly and accurately what these groups believe and explains their place in the religious community. However, to call them Protestant is blatantly untrue and they need to be removed from the Protestant wiki page. Canbuhay 20:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC) Canbuhay
I cannot believe this Bytebear person is considered an expert on Christian doctrine when clearly he doesn't understand the dynamics of what he is saying. Mormons don't believe Jesus is the one true God - they believe their Jesus was the son of the one true god of this planet. And just as this god had children and populated a planet, good Mormons can one day become god of their own planet. Just look up wiki's page on Mormonism and notice how it says Mormons believe that God is the one true God of this earth - they believe there are other planets that are inhabited and governed by their own gods. On the other hand, Protestants at the Reformation never rejected the idea that Jesus is a member of the trinity who is one God over all space and time. These are clearly different views of Jesus.
BTW, Catholics don't view Protestants as "heretical" in the same way Protestants AND Catholics view JWs and Mormons as heretical http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_othe.htm
Look, we can debate whether or not a mouse in a cookie jar is a cookie, but my position on whether or not JW's and Mormons are Christians are besides the point. The fact of the matter is, they do not see themselves as Protestants and Protestants don't view them as one of their own. Historically, their ties may have come from a rejection of Protestant theology but clearly today, what they believe is different from the main tenants of the Reformation. To say that they should be grouped together with Protestants is like saying the US should still be grouped together with the British Commonwealth countries. Clearly something happened to change their identity (again look up the wiki page for the British Commonwealth as an example of how to better deal with historical ties vs modern day definitions).
At the same time, the definition of Protestantism, as it currently stands on wiki, is contradictory. It states that "Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses, reject Protestantism" and yet are grouped as "churches most commonly associated with Protestantism" . If these groups reject Protestantism, how can they still be considered Protestant?
And Bytebear, judgment is spelled with only one "e".
Canbuhay 08:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)Canbuhay
Thanks Tim - in journalism school here in Canada, "judgement" is spelled wrong.
I think you need to understand the context I'm coming to this page. I'm not commenting on whether or not Mormons/JWs are Christians. I'm commenting on whether they are Protestants and clearly from the wiki definition of Protestants, they don't qualify. In fact, they themselves don't consider themselves Protestants, so according to this policy, they shouldn't be listed here! We can definitely include them under Christian, simply because that's what they call themselves, but it makes no sense to include them on the Protestant page and at the same time write They "reject Protestantism".
Canbuhay 03:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)Canbuhay
I see some changes have been made but I think this is now worse. JWs and Mormons don't see themselves as Christian denominations and neither do other Christian groups. They consider themselves Christian groups, in fact the Christian group, so they cannot be a denomination within broader Christianity.
The best thing to do is to just remove them from the Protestant page altogether or include them in a separate subsection as groups often associated with Protestant churches but are not Protestant. The current wording doesn't work because it isn't true. Wiki is just losing credibility with everyone familiar with anything about Protestant Christianity when it continues to define these groups in a way NO ONE else does.
68.144.216.55 19:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)Canbuhay
I do not understand why the Sacred Heart would be chosen as the most representative image of "Christianity". Is it Wikipedia's intention to depict a relatively recent Roman Catholic devotional art tradition as the most correct? the most representative? or what? Is Christianity about pictures, and if so, why this picture? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I noticed this morning that one of the pages I was working on was picking up Category:WikiProject Christianity from this template. After reviewing the 3 references to categories being imported by this template above, I've gone ahead and moved that category within the <noinclude> block. If this was done intentionally, can someone please explain why? Most Wikiproject cats are not used on articles intentionally, and so I'd be interested to hear why that project has gone a different way. --Ahc 02:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
It allows for the articles with this WikiProjects template to be included in the WikiProject category and thus visible to the editors of the WikiProject making it easier to find articles related to the project. It also makes people reading the article aware that it is part of the WikiProject even though a notice has not been put on the talk page. Many articles that would be missed by the WikiProject are included by use of the template. It is already common for banners with rating systems such as Template:WikiProject Dallas-Fort Worth to do this so I am readding the category.--Jorfer 19:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that we add the Christian anthropology link to the template. Anthropology is a major part of Christian anthropology theology. Perhaps it could be piped as "Doctrine of Man" or something, which may be a more common phrase if not less accurate and possibly less politically correct, i.e. for using "Man" for humans. Your comments please. Colin MacLaurin 09:08, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. I think this template is too big, but I agree it's difficult to shorten it. Also, I think it's too small :).
Hopefully one (or more) of the following ideas can help. -- TimNelson 00:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, that brings me to my suggestion -- a collapsible template. For example, imagine the Western Christianity section (of which I am a part) were collapsible. There could be a "show" tag next to it that would allow it to expand, and every page that wants it expanded by default could include it with the text {{Christianity|Western_Christianity=expanded}}.
In addition, it would probably be useful to allow multiple collapsible sections attached to the same name. For example, if "Calvinism=expanded" were specified, there would probably be items that would be useful in the Theology section.
I was thinking that any of the following might make good separate templates (with links from the main template of course). I was thinking they'd be good as the sort of templates that run all the way across the bottom of the page, rather than being side-boxes. They could be used in addition to the main template.
Ok, I'm going to start by making Template:Christian denominations. -- TimNelson 01:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Question on the "Church" link: Why the link to One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church instead of Christian Church? Granted there is overlap in meaning but
I saw that there was some discussion earlier on this although the arguments against didn't make much sense to me.
On a related note, do the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and Christian Church need to be separate articles? Frankly "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" is more of an expression to be defined than a "topic". It seems that the content should be merged into Christian Church and Nicene Creed (there is some good content in that article that is missing from Christian Church).
Comments?
--Mcorazao 15:04, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Csh1066 recently added the Archbishop of Canterbury as an important figure. Although obviously the position is important I question whether this rises to the level of the few figures listed on this template. From the perspective of modern times the Anglican communion is about the same size as the Eastern Orthodox communion so why is no one there listed. From a historical perspective the Anglican Church is not one of the oldest and I'm not aware that the Archbishop's role, important as it is, has been seen to have been one of the most defining roles in Christianity.
I'm not trying to slight anybody's faith but unless we list every leader of every denomination the line has to be drawn somewhere.
Am I missing a perspective here? --Mcorazao 22:20, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'll defer to my suggestion below. I think listing specific offices is contentious. For what it's worth
Anyway, as I say, I think the specific offices are too contentious. See below.
--Mcorazao 03:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that the list of important figures needs to be cleaned up and rethought. I'd propose the following.
I believe this is a little more coherent and balanced.
--Mcorazao 06:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! So to respond:
Sorry if I'm overly verbose.
--Mcorazao 04:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Same here. --Mcorazao 04:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the important figures section is a bit of a mess and currently includes some offices that aren't even persons per se--those have to go. As with what you have here, I think it's good and relatively thorough without being overly so. I would note that the Modern section is missing any restorationist figures. Perhaps add Alexander Campbell? He seems a bit more important, from what I've read, than Barton Stone. Or perhaps it hasn't been long enough to know whether Campbell has had a major impact. Also, I can't imagine how you can have important figures in the early church without Simon/Peter --Velvet elvis81 00:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)