Talk:Fifth wall

This article was nominated for deletion on 17 March 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus.

This redirect was nominated at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion on January 13, 2010. The result of the discussion was Keep.

This is an archive of past discussions about Fifth wall. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

added redirection since Fourth Wall mentions this concept.--Jeiki Rebirth (talk) 20:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the entire section as the items fail WP:V, WP:TRIVIA, WP:OR, or WP:NOTPLOT. This article was already deleted once before and, after a brief search for sources, I don't this would survive AFD since it is likely a non-notable neologism. However, I'm willing to wait a little while for interested editors to add reliable sources and establish notabity of the subject, as long as the article isn't simply loaded with reams of IPC examples again. Doctorfluffy (robe and wizard hat) 02:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm trying to give this article a chance and allow time for interested parties to improve it by condensing the junk and adding reliable references, but if editors keep restoring the list of "here's some random crap that I saw in this movie/tv show/cartoon I like" then I am going to go directly to AFD. I've searched and concluded that the phrase isn't used widely and isn't notable. Some of the list may be verifiable, but it's just another magnet for unreferenced OR and trivia which detracts from the credibility of the article. Doctorfluffy (robe and wizard hat) 07:56, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

• I don't think that the fact that some feel inclined to make ill-advised additions or capricious reverts is a reason to 86 the entire article. There is a long history of usage of 'fifth wall,' though as noted elsewhere, it does not always (usually?) follow the usage here. (I don't know what to suggest for all the trivia and 'here's an example!' type stuff, I just think it should the subject is a good one, and should be fixed, not eighty-sixed.) There is a usage relating to television, appearing early ; there is quite a bit of use by academics with regard to Shakespeare and/or theater in general; more generally, it seems to be embraced as a term for 'new' or 'tradition-breaking' used especially by small media and theater groups. Cites for the last are easy to find even without an actual library [we shouldn't rely only on The Internet or The Google for a term that has much more on-campus, on-stage, and on-paper discussion than online discussion] -- search for '5th wall,' instead of 'fifth wall.'

Anyway, here are a few references....

Encyclopedia of Television' 2Nd Ed.

"By presenting live reports with both visual and sound components, television was described as the fifth wall in the living room, or as the “Miracle Mirror.” Television was celebrated as the “window to the world"[....]

Framing Attention: Windows on Modern German Culture' Parallax (Baltimore, Md.)

"As television critic Werner Rings feared in his 1962 treatise The Fifth Wall, “Hundreds of Millions of people plunged themselves into this new experience, into this whirlpool of dreamlike lust and desire, with one push of the button, with a mere turning of a switch, to summon men and women, destinies and events, faces and foreign worlds to their screen [....]"

Shakespeare, theater, academic use of 'fifth wall' [very good, but I'm not going to reproduce from google books] : http://books.google.com/books?id=ud9y2pZqOnYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22fifth+wall%22&ei=9TG_SYrgFI2iyATHw-nAAg#PPA1,M1 http://books.google.com/books?id=ud9y2pZqOnYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22fifth+wall%22&ei=9TG_SYrgFI2iyATHw-nAAg#PPA2,M1

Academic, theater cite: Breaking the Fifth Wall, By Lynne Kent, Queensland University of Technology Creative Industries Faculty: http://books.google.com/books?id=tdElNAAACAAJ&dq=%22fifth+wall%22&lr=&ei=TjO_SZujK6G4ywSRiYiuDg

http://www.unknowntheater.com/publicsite/the5thwall_about.asp : Because Unknown Theater is dedicated to making theater a regular part of people’s lives, we have created The 5th Wall as a place where social-life and creativity meet. We want to tear down the imaginary barrier between the theater and rest of the community. Join us in this Unknown no-man's-land between art and celebration.

http://www.shanghaiisart.com/mc/5thWall.html : Traditionally, three walls contain a theatrical performance and the audience forms the fourth wall. 5th Wall Performance finds ways to expand the idea of theater and performance thematically, spatially and physically through a fully collaborative process.

Here's another, from a small gaming company, explaing their company name: "Our slogan is 'Breaking down the 5th wall in social interactions through live action role playing'." From the section, "Origin of Company Name": "We all sat down and realized that allot[sic] of us were actors. So we referenced that we were not only trying to break through the "4th wall", but trying to bring the audience onto the stage with us. Therefore, we are trying to break through the wall above the fourth. The 5th Wall." [1]

http://youngfilmmakersworkshop.org/5thwall.php : As the term "4th Wall" signifies the presence of an imaginary wall between performers and audience, "5th Wall" expresses the absence of boundaries.

Undefined, but referenced with respect to live theater http://www.5thwallproductions.org/default.htm

This reference is less direct (or coherent), but is another performance-related mention: http://www.improactive.info/blog/whereisthe5thwallanyway

TV-production-related but I can't see much of the content in my browser: http://www.5thwallentertainment.com

I apologize for the formatting. Maybe just think of my poor formatting, and now self-consciously calling attention to poor editing in a meta-discussion on a meta-concept -- as fifth-wall wiki-breaking. Or, bleh, not. Yours, SK--Skandha101 05:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skandha101 (talk • contribs)

Sorry, these don't really work. For instance Lynne Kent, uses the term as the shadow screen in puppet theater. The Shakespeare ref it to an theater troupe called "The Fifth Wall". The 5thwallentertainment.com links are also the name of a organisation, "http://www.shanghaiisart.com/mc/5thWall.html" is also a proper name. "http://www.improactive.info/blog/whereisthe5thwallanyway" is the idea you postulate, I think, but a rambling stream of consciousness blog entry. The Werner Rings (1962) is a metaphorical title for a different idea than you are describing. In short, even in the examples you provide, the only one that actually describes the same concept you have written about is a blog entry that (not trying to be cruel) sounds like the rambling of a stoned college student. Sorry, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and as such, has articles about established things, people, events, and concepts. It is not the place to try and develop a concept into prominence. It's an interesting idea, and it's your's. Take it and make it famous, and then come back and write a wikipedia article about it afterward. T L Miles (talk) 00:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, I agree to some extent (see my comment above "There is a long history of usage of 'fifth wall,' though as noted elsewhere, it does not always (usually?) follow the usage here," as well as more pointed (later) comments in the afd thread). My intention with the citations was not to support the page as it existed, but to support the possibility that a keep and rewrite made sense. The academic/theater usage is the one that is the most coherent, but is the least represented by google searches. And no, it doesn't very well align with the current content (though recent edits have improved the first paragraph in this regard). To recap from my perspective at this point:

• most documented uses with any history reference only theater and television
• "To the extent that fifth wall is used in the real world, I'd have to agree that the article's alignment with the examples (including those I've cited) is pretty weak."[one of my afd comments]
• the trivia section as it exists now is problematic (I would move it somewhere else... off-wikipedia?)
• I believe the article could be (almost completely) rewritten and be valuable, though I don't know who the interested parties are.
• I find the topic interesting, but otherwise have no other connection to it (I'm not in theater, film, gaming or other media).
• There are legit documented uses, though based on what I've seen, someone would need to refer to resources from an actual library (electronic or physical) to give more appropriate citations.
• Now that I think about it, could/should this subject (in minimum form as a passing reference) be rolled into the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metafiction article? Most of the examples easily fall under a 'metafiction' rubric.

--Skandha101 • 18:46, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

further comment on metafictionThe Metafiction article isn't really fantastic, either. It, along with this one, tends to lose the larger view because much of the input comes from a handful of editors who are enthusiastic about a favorite show, movie, novel, comic, etc.. --Skandha101 • 18:56, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Shakespeare, Language and the Stage, The Fifth Wall: Approaches to Shakespeare from Criticism, Performance and Theatre Studies (review) Shakespeare Quarterly - Volume 57, Number 2, Summer 2006, pp. 235-237]

Not sure how to dovetail this in but it would seems to be noteworthy. -- Banjeboi 11:19, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

• Synergistic storyscapes and constructionist cinematic sharing by G. Davenport, S. Agamanolis, B. Barry, B. Bradley, and K. Brooks; IBM Systems Journal, 2000 - research.ibm.com. -- Banjeboi 11:31, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

• Searching for the Impossible Dream, Staging the Impossible Script -- Banjeboi 11:38, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

The fifth wall generalize conceot goes back to at least the 1960s[2] when both the floor, of an apartment, and ceilings were considered fifth walls to be addressed. -- Banjeboi 12:00, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

[3] . -- Banjeboi 12:00, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

In one of the Sylvester Stallone films there is a line to him to the effect "You think you're Rambo?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.83.172.121 (talk) 14:04, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

The term "the fifth wall" is, at best, a term like "sixth sense" in that it doers not refer to any specific thing. The term "sixth sense" is used to refer to any number of things that could be counted as such, and insofar as anyone ever uses the term "fifth wall" at all, there is no consistent meaning of it. So the (still unsourced) definition given on this page does not define a general usage of the term. The greater problem is that the term "fifth wall' is one that is quite obscure. Google it and you get no consistent patter of its use as a term at all. This article purports to explain a term that, in reality, does not really exist. The article should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.68.40.57 (talk) 21:46, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I AFDed it a while back. In short, your concern, which is similar to my own, wasn't addressed at all and it was kept because people ran google searches with "fifth wall" plugged in and those searches returned more than a blank screen. No actual review of the "sources" found was performed and naturally the article was never improved (insomuch as it's possible for a non-existent topic) since the drive-by keepers forgot about it immediately after casting their !votes. AFD it again if you like. Doctorfluffy (robe and wizard hat) 23:51, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. I just updated the page to make it accurate, but I doubt it will last long as is. No doubt, someone without sources will decide that the term is significant and change it back. I guess the term exists in wikiality, and that's good enough for some. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.192.94.120 (talk) 01:26, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

This is an archive of past discussions about Fifth wall. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.