Talk:Easter Oratorio
As promised, Gerda, here are some points which catch my eye upon an initial read through:
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Comments
As promised, Gerda, here are some points which catch my eye upon an initial read through:
beginning with "Kommt, eilet und laufet" (Come, hurry and run).
– I'd suggest using Template:Gloss (or just single quotes) for the English translation- In other Bach composition, we use simple sentence case if a translation is just a translation, not a title in English. --GA
- Hmm, I notice it's done at BWV 1, for instance, but it's no big deal. – Michael Aurel (talk) 23:20, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
- In other Bach composition, we use simple sentence case if a translation is just a translation, not a title in English. --GA
Bach composed it in Leipzig, using music from a congratulatory cantata, Entfliehet, verschwindet, entweichet, ihr Sorgen, BWV 249a, or Shepherd Cantata,
– I think this could be read as saying that he used music from one of two works (when they're the same work). Writing "Entfliehet, verschwindet, entweichet, ihr Sorgen, BWV 249a (or Shepherd Cantata)," would resolve this.- I tried "known as the SC". --GA
or Shepherd Cantata, that he had performed on 23 February for Christian, Duke of Saxe-Weissenfels.
– "which he had performed" sounds more grammatical here to me.- I believe you. --GA
Unlike Bach's other oratorios, the Easter Oratorio features no original Biblical text sung by an Evangelist narrator, but is an action between four Biblical characters assigned to the four voice parts.
– Hmm, I'm not sure "action" quite works here. Do we perhaps mean "dialogue", or something else?- The model was probably played in costumes - how would you call that? The German word would be "Handlung" not in the plot sense but as Wagner named Tristan und Isolde. "dialogue" is wrong, because sometimes four people talk, but for the longest time, we hear one person reflect their emotions in an aria. - Perhaps we should expand the model? --GA
- Hmm, "storyline" and "narrative" come to mind first (but these may be too close to "plot"?). I'm perhaps not grasping the concept here entirely. If we can't find the right word, it would probably also be acceptable to simply write "but has four Biblical characters assigned to the four voice parts". – Michael Aurel (talk) 23:20, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
- The model was probably played in costumes - how would you call that? The German word would be "Handlung" not in the plot sense but as Wagner named Tristan und Isolde. "dialogue" is wrong, because sometimes four people talk, but for the longest time, we hear one person reflect their emotions in an aria. - Perhaps we should expand the model? --GA
The work in eleven movements is festively scored with a Baroque instrumental ensemble
– Commas around "in eleven movements"- I believe you. --GA
Bach held the work in high esteem; he wrote a new autograph score For Easter 1738, then called it Oratorio.
– One or two typos here I think.- That sentence got already rephrased earlier. --GA
Bach composed a Tafel-Music, Entfliehet, verschwindet, entweichet, ihr Sorgen, BWV 249a, or Shepherd Cantata,
– Hmm, can you have "a" Tafel-Music? I think this italicised word could also look like part of the title upon first glance (so I'd suggest "..., a work of Tafel-Music"). Same comment applies to "or Shepherd Cantata" as above.- dropped the term at that point --GA
in 1725 for the 43rd birthday of his patron, Christian, Duke of Saxe-Weissenfels, performed on at Schloss Neu-Augustusburg [de] on 23 February 1725.
– I'd suggest starting a new sentence after "Duke of Saxe-Weissenfels" (as otherwise it sounds as though Christian was performed!).- yes ;) --GA
The Shepherd Cantata, an interaction of two shepherds and two shepherdesses and termed a Tafelmusik,
– Tafelmusik is linked above (and is spelt differently there)- no more --GA
Bach used its music, composing new recitatives, for a church cantata for Easter Sunday.
– Suggest linking recitative- yes --GA
that are probably taken from a concerto of the Köthen period.
– I'd suggest giving a link or a brief explanation for "Köthen period"- linked to bio --GA
The cantata was first titled: Kommt, gehet und eilet.
– Quotes are used for the title in the first sentence of the lead (I'd suggest using one or the other)- In the lead, we talk about the first line, but here about the title of the piece. Should we say "began with" for consistency? --GA
After performing the second version of his St John Passion in Leipzig on Good Friday 1725,
– This sentence is quite long, and has a number of clauses; I'd suggest splitting it somewhere.- I see a separation by semi-colon, but if it helps, I give it a full stop. The connection should be clear. --GA
Bach seems to enjoy the work
– "seemed", as he's no longer alive- The seeming is present, no? Should it be "It seems that Bach enjoyed the work"? I tried to change the tense differently. --GA
he wrote a new autograph score and called the work Oratorio.
– Not sure this is quite grammatical; "labelled the work as an oratorio", perhaps? I'd suggest also linking oratorio- "labelled" taken - I hesitate to link because it's more the name here than the genre. --GA
work among Bach's Passions and Oratorios that features no chorale
– Not sure "Oratorios" should be capitalised. I'd suggest linking Passions (Bach)- done --GA
but in the 1740s, Bach rewrote the opening duet, setting it partly for four choir.
– Comma after "but" or no comma after "1740s"- placed year at the end --GA
the scoring is taken from the Neue Bach-Ausgabe.
– Should be italicised I think- yes --GA
This is down to the end of the "Plot, structure and scoring". I'll see if I can have a read of the rest sometime later today, and do let me know if the GA review falls my way (in which case I'll have a more careful look through). – Michael Aurel (talk) 04:12, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you so much, Michael! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:13, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
I do notice that there have been some significant changes to the article since my above comments, but in the interest of completion I'll look over the rest (without looking at the altered first half of the article).
The music of the arias and the closing chorus, Nos. 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11, correspond to movements of the secular model,
– A bit of a technicality, but it's the movements (denoted by the numbers here) which are corresponding to something. We do implicitly call the Shepherd Cantata the work's "secular model", though I think this could be read as referring to a more general "model" used across his cantatas; that is, I'd suggest explicitly saying "the Shepherd Cantata" here (and you can repeat "the secular model" in brackets if you like). (I'd also suggest not repeating the link here.)correspond to movements of the secular model, 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10, while the recitatives were newly composed for Easter.
– Hmm, are "2, 4, 6, 8, and 10" the recitatives? This would seem to be so, judging by the table, though it initially sounded to me that these were movements of the secular model.The oratorio opens with two contrasting instrumental movements, a Sinfonia, an Allegro concerto grosso of the full orchestra with solo sections for trumpets, violins and oboes, and an Adagio, featuring a solo oboe and sigh motifs (Seufzermotive) in the strings.
– My feeling is that both "Allegro" and "Adagio" should be italicised (or not italicised), as in this context they're representing the same thing (a tempo marking).Yvonne Frindle noted that the Allegro with trumpets and timpani meant the return of festive music after the "quiet time" of Lent.
– Not required, but I tend to use only the scholar's last name after having mentioned them (ie., just "Frindle"). I'd link Lent. I also wonder if "signified" might be more appropriate here?Bach exchanged the solo instrument to flauto traverso in the third version.
– I think this is a Transverse flute? If so, I'd suggest linking that page (and using the English name, if appropriate).may come from a lost concerto from Bach's Köthen period.
– Since we've linked this above, the link to Köthen probably isn't neededbut this was rejected arguing that three movements in a row in triple metre occur in no Bach concerto.
– I'd suggest: "But this was rejected on the grounds that no Bach concerto contains three consecutive movements in triple metre."The middle section is full of coloraturas that illustrate in the secular work laughter and mirth.
– Suggest linking coloratura. I'd also put "laughter and mirth" before "in the secular work".- I took your points up to here, with thanks. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:14, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
The first of the arias is given to the soprano as Maria Jacobe,
– Hmm, I'm assuming Maria Jacobe is a character here; if we have a page on her (the "Mary of Jacob" listed at The Three Marys, maybe?), I'd suggest linking it.- seems to be Mary, mother of James, now linked the first time --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:28, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
Gardiner compared the music to a minuit,
– "minuet", I think- yes --GA
Mary Magdalene shares with the disciples that an angel told her that Jesus was risen.
– "has risen" ("risen" is intransitive, so it doesn't really work in the passive voice)- yes, 750h+ said the same --GA
because of your shroud),[1] while the topic of the secular aria
– I'd suggest starting a new sentence before "while".- split sentence --GA
while the topic of the secular aria was the sleep of the sheep: "Wieget euch, ihr satten Schafe, in dem Schlafe" (Rock yourselves, you contented sheep, into sleep),[27] Simon imagines his death as peaceful now that the shroud makes him believe that Jesus is risen.
– Hmm, if I'm understanding this correctly, I'd suggest splitting this (eg., "The topic ... of the sheep, having the title "Wieget euch, ... ". Here, Simon imagines his death ...).- perhaps the split is enough? --GA
can pay their duties to the dedicatee of the music, Christian, Duke of Saxe-Weissenfels.
– Suggest removing link, as he's linked above- yes --GA
The piece opens with a concertante ritornello
– Suggest linking ritornello- yes --GA
set as adagio.
– Hmm, above tempo markings were capitalised- in the former case, it was the name of the movement, while here it's just one tempo marking, but I made them look alike anyway --GA
resembling the Sanctus composed for Christmas 1724 and later part of the Mass in B minor
– I think I misunderstood this sentence upon first reading. If I'm understanding it correctly, I think "later made part" would work better.- done already because of the comment in the GA review --GA
both pieces feature dotted rhythm in common time and mostly chordal vocal parts.
– I'd suggest using "both sections", as this led me initially to think that "the Sanctus composed for Christmas 1724" and "part of the Mass in B minor" were separate pieces.- not sure to say it best, but it means the two pieces, Oratorio here and Sanctus/Pleni sunt coeli there, explaining where the likeness is seen --GA
published in the New Bach Edition (Neue Bach-Ausgabe, NBA)
– All three should be italicised, I think.- only one is left, italic --GA
I'm not entirely sure what article's current status is (with respect to the GA review and recent changes), but I'll leave these here for consideration, and let me know if I'm needed for the GA review. – Michael Aurel (talk) 23:13, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you. I'm busy today, but may get to it later today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:17, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
- I got to it, - thank you so much! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:28, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
- No problem! – Michael Aurel (talk) 22:57, 12 April 2025 (UTC)
Caption
Regarding this edit: per MOS:CAPTION a caption should be included. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:53, 14 July 2026 (UTC)
- While desirable in general, in case of this overly slender image a caption would add little to what the context already provides, but it would render two frames to the image as shown here, instead of a clean presentation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:09, 15 July 2026 (UTC)
- Two frames is what the other images in the body have. Alternatively we could remove or swap the image. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:37, 16 July 2026 (UTC)
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