Talk:Archie Shepp

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AlexanderBezdek: There needs to be information included about Mr. Shepp's collaboration with Dollar Brand. AlexanderBezdek 19:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Cry Of My People is certainly not *angry*. Even Attica Blues I would call politically angry but not so musically. For some thing on the musical end try Live at Donaueschingen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Audities (talk • contribs) 23:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Any reason this album isn't listed under the discog? MKV (talk) 20:39, 3 February 2009 (UTC)Reply

None other than its flagged incompleteness. Feel free to add. AllyD (talk) 21:39, 3 February 2009 (UTC)Reply

Should be able to build a much more authoritative list based on something like [1]. MKV (talk) 19:02, 5 March 2009 (UTC)Reply

The DISEman is on the case DISEman (talk) 04:11, 31 July 2009 (UTC)Reply

I have heard from Archie Shepp himself that his middle name is not Vernon (and that in fact he has no middle name if I remember correctly). I believe he also explained where the mistake originated, but I can’t remember. I don’t have any source to quote, which is why I really can’t edit the article… Proving a negative is complicated. I could suggest something to Mr Shepp to "generate" a source, because I think he would be happy to have this corrected, but I can’t imagine him stating out of the blue during an interview "Oh, and by the way my middle name is not Vernon." Does anyone have a suggestion to get this fixed?

Thanks Klinein (talk) 16:51, 1 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

You are using the expression "proving a negative" incorrectly. If Shepp's real middle name isn't Vernon, and you want it to appear in the article, you have to find a source that gives his real name. There are other sources than interviews. Books, for example. Actual paper. Do some digging. Learn how to do research. We can't merely take your word for it.
Vmavanti (talk) 16:28, 2 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

There are plenty of sources that cite his real name, including Wikipedia. Here is the French version of the article: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Shepp. Allmusic: https://www.allmusic.com/artist/archie-shepp-mn0000503279/biography. His bio for the NEA jazz masters award: https://www.arts.gov/honors/jazz/archie-shepp. His real name is "Archie Shepp". The problem is, would you accept this as proof that he doesn't have a middle name ? I think for what it is worth there are far less sources that do mention the middle name "Vernon", and they all lift from eachother (though I must admit that I did not perform a scientific review ) . The correct sources don't bother to specify that he doesn't have a middle name, because no one does that. Hence "proving a negative": proving that he doesn't have a middle name. I am aware of what this expression means in the context of mathematical logic, and I believe that this is reasonably close to it, so that using it in this context is not, in fact, too misleading: No one ever writes in a biography "John Smith doesn't have a middle name." It is simply not done. The only possible positive source would be an extract of his birth certificate, or if he were to state in an interview that he really doesn't have a middle name, so that someone would actually bother to write it explicitly in a book later… By the way no need to be condescending, I am reasonably competent at researching a subject, and I don't need you to explain to me what proving a negative means or doesn't mean. Neither was I asking for you "to take my word for it" (in fact I explicitly positively did not :) )I was asking for specific advice about fixing a mistake in a Wikipedia article.
Thanks Klinein (talk) 14:14, 16 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

And I gave you advice, so what's the problem? Many people don't know or don't care about sources, so I have to try to assume nothing at the risk of offending readers—and that certainly isn't my intent. You are right. Probably no article is going to say "This man has no middle name" unless there is a biography about him with some story behind that fact. So this is an odd case. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a person without a middle name. I will run this by the other guy who works on jazz articles. I will look at the books on my shelves. Maybe we could add some kind of explanatory note. I don't know where the "Vernon" comes from. Thank you for pointing this out. I respect your diligence and initiative.
Vmavanti (talk) 23:59, 16 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

OK, sorry for the short temper (and rereading my message the curt wording). I think this period frays our dispositions (at least it does mine). Thanks for your help. Klinein (talk) 11:24, 17 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

Tricky. Grove gives him Vernon, and that's usually thought of as authoritative. I don't see a solution other than the ones already suggested, particularly getting reliable sources to report it. We could use his own website (in the absence of reliable sources), but I don't see it mentioned there either. In any case, including a footnote mentioning that some sources state 'AVS' is the best thing to do, or there'll be a cycle of adding and removing (we report what the sources state). EddieHugh (talk) 14:28, 17 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

Yep, I'm puzzled. I'll have to think it about a while.
Vmavanti (talk) 18:10, 17 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

I think the original suggestion of asking Shepp to self generate a source is best. No Swan So Fine (talk) 10:00, 19 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

Can you explain this? What does "self-generate a source" mean?
Vmavanti (talk) 12:29, 19 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

Shepp could say on Twitter, Insta, FB, Youtube, his website, or an in interview that his middle name isn't Vernon. This would be sufficent RS for a BLP. No Swan So Fine (talk) 12:49, 19 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation–supported course assignment, between 17 January 2023 and 9 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tzhang0.0 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Tzhang0.0 (talk) 03:44, 23 March 2023 (UTC)Reply