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Following a motion, the Arbitration Committee rescinded the restrictions on the page name move discussions for the two Ireland pages that were enacted in June 2009.
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Category:Foreign-born politicians has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Bearcat (talk) 16:32, 1 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240101163200","author":"Bearcat","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Bearcat-20240101163200-Category:Foreign-born_politicians_has_been_nominated_for_deletion","replies":[]}}-->
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If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. LizRead!Talk!04:24, 2 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240102042400","author":"Liz","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Liz-20240102042400-Speedy_deletion_nomination_of_Category:1920s_battles","replies":[]}}-->
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Top 10
Top 10 Medical Editor Barnstar 2023
You were one of the top medical editors on English Wikipedia in 2023. Thank you for your hard work! -Mvolz (talk) 12:30, 3 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240103123000","author":"Mvolz","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Mvolz-20240103123000-WikiProject_Medicine_Barnstar","replies":[]}}-->
Hello! I would like to ask you why are the polyhistors related categories proposed for merger? In addition to rationale in general (non-defining?!), I would like a more detailed explanation. What's the difference here compared to, for example, categories of philanthropists or dissidents, which also exist? Thank you for your answer. --Silverije23:39, 3 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240103233900","author":"Silverije","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Silverije-20240103233900-Category:Italian_polymaths_etc.","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240103214300-Silverije-20240103233900"],"displayName":"Silve"}}-->
You are welcome to post about this on the nomination. But in general, Wikipedia:Defining, means that someone is consistently referred to as that characteristic. Furthermore, this category has been deleted several times Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_January_20#Category:PolymathsMason (talk) 21:43, 3 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240103214300","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240103214300-Silverije-20240103233900","replies":["c-Silverije-20240104225700-Smasongarrison-20240103214300"],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
Thank you for your answer. Firstly, I asked you what's the difference compared to other, very similar categories (e.g. philanthropists, dissidents) which exist? Secondly, this category has been deleted several times because "it was undefined, which allows almost anyone to be included in it if they have demonstrated any sort of ability in more than one discipline or area of life" or so. But if you read the article Polymath, it is clearly defined: an individual whose knowledge spans a substantial number of subjects, known to draw on complex bodies of knowledge to solve specific problems. Furthermore, or last but not least, if a person is mentioned as a polymath in reliable sources, then it should be respected, and that's what the Wikipedia rules say, isn't it? --Silverije22:57, 4 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240104225700","author":"Silverije","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Silverije-20240104225700-Smasongarrison-20240103214300","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240104231800-Silverije-20240104225700"],"displayName":"Silve"}}-->
I understand that you asked me several questions. I think you'd be better off asking them on the nomination page as they are all related to the nomination/category in question. Mason (talk) 23:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240104231800","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240104231800-Silverije-20240104225700","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
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I saw you use AWB to tag {{Unreferenced}} to articles in List of Harlequin Romance novels. Would you like to collaborate citing these entries with corresponding OCLC numbers? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 07:43, 5 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240105074300","author":"CactiStaccingCrane","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-CactiStaccingCrane-20240105074300-Help_needed_citing_List_of_Harlequin_Romance_novels","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240106014800-CactiStaccingCrane-20240105074300"]}}-->
Thanks for reaching out. I'm not really interested in adding sources for the romance novels. My interest is more in categories. Good luck with those OCLC. Mason (talk) 01:48, 6 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240106014800","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240106014800-CactiStaccingCrane-20240105074300","replies":["c-CactiStaccingCrane-20240106020600-Smasongarrison-20240106014800"],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
Fair enough. I'm tackling this backlog Category:Articles lacking sources from January 2024 and the Harlequin Romance lists appeared in my backlog feed. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 02:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240106020600","author":"CactiStaccingCrane","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-CactiStaccingCrane-20240106020600-Smasongarrison-20240106014800","replies":[]}}-->
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The New Page Patroller's Barnstar
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Hi, you seem to have included Julian Ashton in a category diffusion and identified him as a woman.[1] I am guessing this was either a misreading of the name or a misclick in cat-a-lot. I thought I'd mention it in case you were planning to include him in any more gender-based diffusions. From Hill To Shore (talk) 16:28, 13 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240113162800","author":"From Hill To Shore","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-From_Hill_To_Shore-20240113162800-Category_diffusion","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240113190800-From_Hill_To_Shore-20240113162800"]}}-->
Thanks! I misread, Julian as Julia, while using cat-a-lot, so your guess is spot on. :) Mason (talk) 19:08, 13 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240113190800","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240113190800-From_Hill_To_Shore-20240113162800","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
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An automated process has detectedthat when you recently edited Tex Gibbons, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page William Gibbons.
There is still after your merge nomination only 1 article in 7th-century novels. That should probably be merge to 7th-century literature.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:04, 15 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240115020400","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240115020400-7th-century_novels","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
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These 2 categories, well actually it looks like 6 categories, as a total have 1 article. Not 1 article a piece, rhere is one article on a writer who lived in the 10th and 11th century in Japan who wrote something deemed a novel, and we have 6 categories where the only article is this 1 Category. John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:09, 15 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240115020900","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240115020900-10th_and_11th_century_novelists","replies":["c-Johnpacklambert-20240115021500-Johnpacklambert-20240115020900"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
The article is in 27 categories, including Japanese literature, which does not seem right for an article in writer categories. The article is in Japanese novelists, so we could merge to 11th-century Japanese writers, which only has 12 articles in total outside the poets sub-cat. I think that would aid navigation a lot. I am actually thinking if we want to aud navigation to pre-1200 novelists a list would be better than a Category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240115021500","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240115021500-Johnpacklambert-20240115020900","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240115021700-Johnpacklambert-20240115021500"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
thanks! Mason (talk) 02:17, 15 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240115021700","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240115021700-Johnpacklambert-20240115021500","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
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Hi, Smasongarrison, now that we've got the BNA Lawyers, Doctors, and Writers tidied up, I had a question. What is "FOOian", please? You used it in this sentence in the deletion proposal: "This is an unhelpful category that encourages individuals being removed from their defining FOOian medical doctor category." I've been trying to think what FOO stands for, without success. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 19:38, 15 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240115193800","author":"Mr Serjeant Buzfuz","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20240115193800-What_is_\"FOOian\",_please?","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240115200100-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20240115193800"]}}-->
FOO is a filler word. In this case it stands in for any nationality category, so "British" medical doctor, "American" medical doctor, "Icelandic" medical doctor etc, are all FOOian medical doctors. It's a shorthand. Mason (talk) 20:01, 15 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240115200100","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240115200100-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20240115193800","replies":["c-Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz-20240115213800-Smasongarrison-20240115200100"],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
You know more about categories on Wikipedia than I can hope to learn so I come to you with a question. Do you think we need both Category:Texas secessionism and Category:Texas secession movements or should there be some kind of Merge here? Thanks for any opinion you can offer. LizRead!Talk!03:19, 16 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240116031900","author":"Liz","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Liz-20240116031900-Query","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240116041500-Liz-20240116031900"]}}-->
Awww thanks for the compliment! My immediate reaction was that these categories seem extremely similar. So, I took a look at how other countries are categorized within the Category:Separatism by country, which includes a subcategory for Category:Micronations by country. Using this structure, Texas seems more akin to a Micronation in the United States than an actual nation. Notably, most of these categories do not have both a separatist movement and a separatism category. It might only be necessary to have both if there are a lot of separatist movements that are difficult to organize. However, for now, my immediate suggestion is to merge the Category:Texas secession movements into the Category:Texas secessionism category. Mason (talk) 04:15, 16 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240116041500","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240116041500-Liz-20240116031900","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
Medieval Catalan writers is for Catalan nationals, wheres Catalan-language writers are writers that use the catalan language. They're related, but one uses nationality and the other uses language. Mason (talk) 19:33, 16 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240116193300","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240116193300-Srnec-20240116151900","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
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I am sorry that my above comment was not written in the best tone. I am very sorry about that.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:45, 18 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240118024500","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240118024500-I_am_sorry_about_the_above","replies":["c-Johnpacklambert-20240118024600-Johnpacklambert-20240118024500","c-Smasongarrison-20240118025200-Johnpacklambert-20240118024500"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
I want Wikipedia to be a place where positive interactions can occur. I hope you will forgive me for the tone of the above post.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:46, 18 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240118024600","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240118024600-Johnpacklambert-20240118024500","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
I accept you apology (and there's nothing to forgive). You've made a lot of progress over the years on wikipedia. We both want wikipedia to be a place for positivity. And, I think that it is; heck the fact that we can have this kind of conversation is good evidence for it being a positive place. Mason (talk) 02:52, 18 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240118025200","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240118025200-Johnpacklambert-20240118024500","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
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If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. ✗plicit14:52, 22 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240122145200","author":"Explicit","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Explicit-20240122145200-Speedy_deletion_nomination_of_Category:Tuberculosis_deaths_in_Kazakhstan","replies":[],"displayName":"\u2717"}}-->
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Hello, Smasongarrison
According to the CFD closure, it looks like this category was supposed to be Merged but you emptied it and didn't merge the articles to the new category which was never created. Am I reading the CFD decision incorrectly? LizRead!Talk!19:48, 27 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240127194800","author":"Liz","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Liz-20240127194800-Category:Fictional_characters_with_eye_diseases","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240127195200-Liz-20240127194800"]}}-->
Also, the CSD tags on the category page do not have correct links on them. For one, for example, you have Wikipedia:Categories for discussion#Category:Roman Catholic chapels in South Africa linked in one CSD tag. That just directs you to the main WP:CFD main page, not to the CFD discussion about the category. I really appreciate you handling the outcome of closed CFD discussions but it would help if the deletion note had a link to the correct discussion. Thank you. LizRead!Talk!23:51, 27 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240127235100","author":"Liz","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Liz-20240127235100-Smasongarrison-20240127195200","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240128014700-Liz-20240127235100"]}}-->
I can do that :) Mason (talk) 01:47, 28 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240128014700","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240128014700-Liz-20240127235100","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240128191700-Smasongarrison-20240128014700"],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
I finally figured out how to do it! (by reverting Omni's edit), as that's a lot easier than figuring out how to get the template to use the link as intended. Mason (talk) 19:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240128191700","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240128191700-Smasongarrison-20240128014700","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
I just came across Category:Crime and Punishment in Richmond, Virginia when I was looking at an editor's contributions. I don't think this is how categories concerning locations and crime are titled but you are more familiar with the category hierarchy than I am. Is this okay to leave this as is or should it go to WP:CFD? Thanks. LizRead!Talk!23:40, 29 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240129234000","author":"Liz","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Liz-20240129234000-Category_query","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240129234400-Liz-20240129234000"]}}-->
Thanks for passing it along. I suspect that it'll need to be renamed, because the only Crime and Punishment categories are: Category:Crime and Punishment and Category:Crime and punishment in ancient Rome. I'll take a look and see where it should fit, and nominate it. Mason (talk) 23:44, 29 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240129234400","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240129234400-Liz-20240129234000","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
You posted this message on wrong userpage I think. That user has not edited cats at Karen Roeds. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 03:54, 31 January 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240131035400","author":"J\u00e4hmefyysikko","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-J\u00e4hmefyysikko-20240131035400-Wrong_userpage","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240131035500-J\u00e4hmefyysikko-20240131035400"]}}-->
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I have noticed that we havd some categories where people ofen end up in 6 or more related ones. At that point it become questionalble they are defining. I almost think there should be a way to create a rule against thos. One is coaches by college. Some people are literally in over 10 categories. This often involves 1 season placements as a liw coverage coach. I outlined a proposal for restructuring that on my talk page. Basically we would change the by college categories to bd by head coach, and then gave offensive, defensive and a few other coach type xategories. With sports expatriates we have a situation where people in say Expatriarlte Czech sportspeople in Mexico will also be in say Expatriate footballees in Mexico, so one article for a person who played for teams in 6 countries will be in 12 categories for this. I think in this xase just being in Expatriate Czech sportspeople would be enough.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:45, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203044500","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240203044500-Excessively_same_categories","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240203045100-Johnpacklambert-20240203044500"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
Hmmmm... I'll think about it. You make some good points, but it might be helpful to think through this counterargument. Is the purpose of categories to help navigation between pages or to help organize pages? If the only purpose is to add labels to pages, then your proposal makes sense. However, does it really matter whether a page is in a lot of categories, if the goal is to help users navigate from a page to a category to another page? Mason (talk) 04:51, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203045100","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240203045100-Johnpacklambert-20240203044500","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
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Category:American military sports coaches Category Talk
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This category has 62 suc-cats and 6 articles. 31 of those sub-cats have 1 article. None have over 12 articles. I am also not sure this is defining. A lot of these categories are also American college football coaches. I am not sure this is right. I am not sure this is defining. In the Barksdale case that part of the career of the man who is the one article in the Category is only mentioned in a table, not even in the article text.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:05, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203050500","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240203050500-Category:American_military_sports_coaches_Category_Talk","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240203051600-Johnpacklambert-20240203050500"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
What you're writing seems reasonable... I just wish I knew enough about football coaches to give you some guidance. I bet @Omnis Scientia knows more about this? (I know that they're more into baseball, but at minimum they have sports knowledge). Mason (talk) 05:16, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203051600","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240203051600-Johnpacklambert-20240203050500","replies":["c-Omnis_Scientia-20240203105400-Smasongarrison-20240203051600"],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
@Smasongarrison, firstly I believe category title is misleading. These are all football coaches (even the two NOT named "football coaches") so it should be "military football coaches". But it should be noted these are also part of Category:College football coaches in the United States. So I would say, until there are more categories, we should merge the categories with 1-to-3 articles with the parent category and have the category renamed to "American military football coaches". Omnis Scientia (talk) 10:54, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203105400","author":"Omnis Scientia","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Omnis_Scientia-20240203105400-Smasongarrison-20240203051600","replies":["c-Omnis_Scientia-20240203105900-Omnis_Scientia-20240203105400"]}}-->
I wouldn't say deletely because it is part of Category:Military sport in the United States as well. Omnis Scientia (talk) 10:59, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203105900","author":"Omnis Scientia","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Omnis_Scientia-20240203105900-Omnis_Scientia-20240203105400","replies":[]}}-->
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Hi. I see you're on a big move on rearranging photographers-related categories. I've been personally very much involved in this world, as I am now in topics relating to Israel & Palestine. A go-to category for colonial-era (Ottoman and British) photography in Palestine has proven to be missing and very much needed for lots of activities, and very useful once there. Please do read my reply to your, practically, elimination request, so I don't need to repeat my arguments here. My message to you now is just an attempt of explaining how this category is far from being an abstract and failed attempt at adding yet another impractical, theoretical systematisation item with a very questionable definition and arbitrary limits. No, it grew out of a real-life need, but can also be supported with theoretical arguments, not less valid thany any museographer's who is organising the existing collections and dedicating the available museum halls after a mix of pragmatic and analytic criteria.
Thanks for taking the time. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 14:24, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203142400","author":"Arminden","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Arminden-20240203142400-Categ.:_Early_photographers_in_Palestine","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240203154600-Arminden-20240203142400"]}}-->
Thanks for the context. I wouldn't say that I'm on a "big move", I just happened to stumble into the category. Mason (talk) 15:46, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203154600","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240203154600-Arminden-20240203142400","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
Category:10th-century priests seems to be an abandoned start. I have proposed speedy merging to Christian clergy at WP:CFDS. – FayenaticLondon14:30, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203143000","author":"Fayenatic london","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Fayenatic_london-20240203143000-Category:10th-century_priests","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240203154400-Fayenatic_london-20240203143000"],"displayName":"Fayenatic"}}-->
I think that's a great idea. Mason (talk) 15:44, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203154400","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240203154400-Fayenatic_london-20240203143000","replies":["c-Fayenatic_london-20240203160900-Smasongarrison-20240203154400"],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
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John D. Naylor is the only article in 5 categories related to Beacon/Goldey-Beacon College. It merged and changed its name, I am not sure if that happened while he was employed there. This seems excessive.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:52, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203175200","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240203175200-John_D._Naylor","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240203194800-Johnpacklambert-20240203175200"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
Thanks for pointing this out! I think he was effectively the only coach, and the college merged at some point. I've made a nomination for a merge, which should at least help slim it down. Mason (talk) 19:48, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203194800","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240203194800-Johnpacklambert-20240203175200","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
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The mess that is College football coach categories
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Some of these coaches have coached at over 10 colleges, only being at some for 1 season. I really do not think that all such assignments are defining. Especially since some stay as offensive coordinator, or running backs coach at several places in a row. In those cases I think the specific type of coach is defining but the place coached is not. There is a huge amount of overcategorization in this set of categories. My attempts to bring some order are bring attacked as going against how things have been done over a decade. A system that regularly places articles in 10 or more categories for being a college football coach and pairs this with dozens of such categories with 5 or fewer articles is systemically flaed and needs to change. Most of the extremely small cats are in NCAA Division III, defunct or NAIA categories, or the junior college Category. There may be several categories in there that we really do not need.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:10, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203201000","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240203201000-The_mess_that_is_College_football_coach_categories","replies":["c-Johnpacklambert-20240203201300-Johnpacklambert-20240203201000"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
Stan Drayton is the extreme in this. He literally coached at 12 colleges, 10 of them as running backs coach. I really think that is what idms defining in most cases, not the particular schools he worked for.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:13, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203201300","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240203201300-Johnpacklambert-20240203201000","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240203201800-Johnpacklambert-20240203201300"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
Yep, I've already starting seeing some arguments that a merge who ruin the current coaches system. I'll see how this nom goes, but I'm starting to agree with you at least for the extremely tiny categories. I personally don't see the harm in having individual coaches in a lot of categories, as long as there are enough people in the category. But, I'll keep looking around in coaches. Definitely let me know if there are any other category messes like the Beacon/Goldey-Beacon. I'll be sure to take a look and see if it should be nominated. (I want to make it very clear that I'm not being a meat puppet for you, or that this is circumventing your editing restriction.) Mason (talk) 20:18, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203201800","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240203201800-Johnpacklambert-20240203201300","replies":["c-Johnpacklambert-20240203202500-Smasongarrison-20240203201800"],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
When someone was at a place as one of a large coaching staff for just 1 year I do not think that is defining. On the other hand I am thinking there are too many coaching positions. I think we need to simplify to only a few. I think in a different spirt we limited the coaches by team to the head coaches. I think that might be a better approach in college football.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:25, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203202500","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240203202500-Smasongarrison-20240203201800","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
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This is a defunct team. There is only one article on a coach. The Category is currently no.inated for upmerger or such. I wonder if merging the 1 article directly into College coaches of defunct teams in the United States might be OK with editors who object to directly placing articles in College football coaches in the United States. The Junior college football coaches in the United States Category directly has about 137 articles so there is a relevant precedent.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:01, 3 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240203210100","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240203210100-UC_San_Diego_Tritons_football","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
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Junior College football coaches in the United States
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This category has 237 direct articles. I have yet to see anyone even try to explain why this category can have direct articles but the parent Category College football coaches in the United States cannot. We do not directly place people in an undifferentiated alumni category, but we do place people in the heads of universities in x country categories. Being a head of a university is a defining part of virtually every biography, at least if they are more than a figurehead. Going to college not really unless it allows for dome sort of grouping. Football coaches we seem to have divided by level they coached at, so it seems that there is no reason bot to place them there.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:52, 4 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240204145200","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240204145200-Junior_College_football_coaches_in_the_United_States","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
Matt Dyson is the only article in George Mason Patriots football. We do not have any other articles on the subject.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:57, 4 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240204145700","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240204145700-Matt_Dyson","replies":["c-Johnpacklambert-20240204150400-Johnpacklambert-20240204145700"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
2 other George Mason Patriots coaches categories also only gave 1 article, and another category had 2 articles. The College men's basketball coaches in the United States has 4 direct biographical articles, so there does not seem to be an actual precedent that the college coach categories cannot hold direct articles. What really worries me in some of these is when people act like moving for 1 article in a category to 2 or 3 makes things all right. We need more stringent ways to end small categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:04, 4 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240204150400","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240204150400-Johnpacklambert-20240204145700","replies":["c-Johnpacklambert-20240204151000-Johnpacklambert-20240204150400"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
One of the 1 article George Mason Patriots categories is George Mason Track and Field coaches. There are 259 direct articles in College track and field coaches in the United States. Yet of the 163 sub-categories, 63 have just 1 article. Several havd only 2 or 3, I didn't bother to count those. This might be a record number if 1 article categories in a tree. Although probably not.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:10, 4 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240204151000","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240204151000-Johnpacklambert-20240204150400","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240205211800-Johnpacklambert-20240204151000"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
Thanks! I'll check these out Mason (talk) 21:18, 5 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240205211800","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240205211800-Johnpacklambert-20240204151000","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
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The more I look at this, the more of a mess it is. There are some sports, such as rifle, where not even one of the sub-cats has even 4 articles. The whole thing is a huge mess to say the least.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:03, 5 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240205150300","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240205150300-College_sports_coaches_in_the_United_States","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240205211800-Johnpacklambert-20240205150300"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
I agree, it is extremely messy! Mason (talk) 21:18, 5 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240205211800","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240205211800-Johnpacklambert-20240205150300","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
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Century categories are not really good for articles
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I do not think we want to be putting articles directly in 20th-century Indian people or 21st-century Indian people. This just leads to too many categories. At any point the average life span is over 50, this will lead to most people being in multiple categories. Some editors will place based on birth and death years alone. I an less than convinced that we need any by century categories gor the 20th or 21st century, but I do not think we want to place biographical articles in ones that intersect nationality and the century. If an occupation is not being diffused by century just place people in thd occupation and nationality cat, but please do not send them up to the nationslity and century cat.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:04, 8 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240208040400","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240208040400-Century_categories_are_not_really_good_for_articles","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
I think Drafter is an example of an article that has too ambiguous a name. It is clear enough from the article, but there are other uses of the word. We have a set of categories for conductors (music), since there are other uses of the word conductor, as a think in electronic and thermodynamics and as a person on a train, and potentially other uses related to the word conducting and those doing it. I think with drafter we may also need a disambiguation heading.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:12, 8 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240208041200","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20240208041200-Drafting_technicians","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
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Just a request to please be careful when you make changes to the {{fooian fooers}} templates in British categories, because you left a large trail of redlinked categories that don't exist behind you.
It's not that your code is wrong, it's that sometimes what was already there interacts with your code incorrectly if it was varying from standard — before the code you're adding to the template was enabled, the common workaround to avoid duplicate categorization in the UK was to change the profession= from "X" to "British X", which causes your new code to generate "British british X" instead of "British X" as the category and thus created obvious silliness like Category:British british numismatists and Category:British british comedy writers.
So basically, after every edit, you need to double-check to ensure that you haven't accidentally caused the page to become filed in categories that don't exist — if you have, then you need to either create the category if it's justifiable, or fix the code if it's double-British nonsense, and don't just walk away leaving the page sitting in redlinked categories. Again, it's not that your code is wrong, it's that sometimes what was already there interacts with your code incorrectly if it was wrong, so just please be aware and watch out for that. Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 17:21, 10 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240210172100","author":"Bearcat","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Bearcat-20240210172100-Fooian_fooers","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240210172200-Bearcat-20240210172100","c-Bearcat-20240210184700-Bearcat-20240210172100"]}}-->
My bad. I'll trackback through my work and reevaluate my workflow, as well as think through how avoid things like this happening in the future. Mason (talk) 17:22, 10 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240210172200","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240210172200-Bearcat-20240210172100","replies":["c-Bearcat-20240210172600-Smasongarrison-20240210172200"],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
I've already caught everything that was picked up by Special:WantedCategories as of this morning, so don't worry about having to go back and review everything you've already done — just keep an eye on it in the future as much as possible. Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 17:26, 10 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240210172600","author":"Bearcat","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Bearcat-20240210172600-Smasongarrison-20240210172200","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240210172800-Bearcat-20240210172600"]}}-->
Thanks! I'm still going to go through at least a handful of them so I can figure out how to prevent (ok... more like reduce the chances of ) this happing again. Mason (talk) 17:28, 10 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240210172800","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240210172800-Bearcat-20240210172600","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
Also, for the time being could you avoid making any major changes to Dominican Republic categories? You edited Category:19th-century Dominican Republic women writers yesterday to change it from manually-coded templates-plus-categories to the standard {{Women writers by nationality and century category header}} — but again through no fault of your own, this had the undesirable side effect of causing the proper Dominican Republic categories to become replaced with mostly-redlinked Dominica categories. But, of course, Dominica and the Dominican Republic are actually two separate countries with their own separate category trees that can't be mixed up like that. Again, you didn't do anything wrong, and just kind of stumbled into another situation where doing a perfectly rational thing imported an error that was caused by other people somewhere else — it's a mistake in the category generation module that needs to be repaired, rather than a mistake you made. I've already reported it to WP:VPT to get it looked at, but could you just avoid making changes like that to Dominican Republic categories until it does get fixed? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 18:47, 10 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240210184700","author":"Bearcat","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Bearcat-20240210184700-Bearcat-20240210172100","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240210191100-Bearcat-20240210184700"]}}-->
Will do! And thanks for emphasizing that the coding error is larger than my changes. :) Mason (talk) 19:11, 10 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240210191100","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240210191100-Bearcat-20240210184700","replies":["c-Bearcat-20240210210800-Smasongarrison-20240210191100"],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
Okay, the Dominican Republic problem has been fixed, so you can resume making changes to those categories now. I have to imagine it's kind of frustrating to have so many things happen in such a short time where you did the right thing and it caused silly other problems that weren't actually your fault at all, but I guess it's improving the encyclopedia since we'd never find these things to fix them if nobody ever walked into them by accident (*grin*) Bearcat (talk) 21:08, 10 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240210210800","author":"Bearcat","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Bearcat-20240210210800-Smasongarrison-20240210191100","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240210211200-Bearcat-20240210210800"]}}-->
That was so fast! Thank you for being proactive about getting this fixed :) (And no worries, my frustration was spend reviving my desktop today, after a windows update messed up something. And... finally, my PC lives! So from my perspective, this is a nice bonus fix that worked out really well in terms of timing.) Mason (talk) 21:12, 10 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240210211200","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240210211200-Bearcat-20240210210800","replies":["c-Bearcat-20240210214400-Smasongarrison-20240210211200"],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
Oh, yuck. I had the same happen to me last week, so I can definitely relate. But that also means that the latest Windows update is probably corrupted itself, in turn meaning that was just another version of the same problem! (Damn trickster gods!) Bearcat (talk) 21:44, 10 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240210214400","author":"Bearcat","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Bearcat-20240210214400-Smasongarrison-20240210211200","replies":[]}}-->
Just wondering why you added {{suppress categories}} to Category:17th-century bishops in the Holy Roman Empire and some others. It looks like the categories you then added are the same as those the template is suppressing. * Pppery *it has begun...23:07, 16 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240216230700","author":"Pppery","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Pppery-20240216230700-Suppress_categories","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240216231300-Pppery-20240216230700"],"displayName":"* Pppery *"}}-->
I think at the time, I hadn't fixed the template to check if the country existed, so it would break a lot. The template I'm using to grab country names doesn't handle many non-modern countries, like the HRE etc. Mason (talk) 23:13, 16 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240216231300","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240216231300-Pppery-20240216230700","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
The templates you have created on Bishops, writers and LGBT people are causing an error in Category:Portal templates with redlinked portals if the country portal does not exist. Would it be possible to make them to only add a country portal if it exists? Lyndaship (talk) 18:27, 15 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240215182700","author":"Lyndaship","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Lyndaship-20240215182700-Templates","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20240215201700-Lyndaship-20240215182700"]}}-->
I'll definitely try to do that. Do you happen to know of any examples of templates that check before adding? Mason (talk) 20:17, 15 February 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20240215201700","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20240215201700-Lyndaship-20240215182700","replies":[],"displayName":"Mason"}}-->
Templates are a bit beyond me but another editor User:Aidan721 who I contacted did a change on this template Template:Sports clubs and teams in Fooland category header/inner core which fixed a similar issue. }
Hello Smasongarrison/Archives,
{ even though all three exist at the Kazakhstani/Turkmenistani/Uzbekistani forms.
Because these were template-generated categories that I can't manually fix, I've had to revert your edit for the moment to put the contents back where they're supposed to be — if you want to redo the edit, can you please take some care to ensure that it doesn't move existing categories to redlinked forms? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 15:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241222150400","author":"Bearcat","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Bearcat-20241222150400-Templates","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20241222150700-Bearcat-20241222150400"]}}-->
Apologies! I had done some troubleshooting, but clearly not enough. I think I need to build the new template more incrementally. Thanks for catching and fixing it. SMasonGarrison15:07, 22 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241222150700","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20241222150700-Bearcat-20241222150400","replies":["c-Jonesey95-20241222150900-Smasongarrison-20241222150700"]}}-->
Please also note that Category:Australian academics was transcluding the nonexistent {{Title continental2}} and Category:Australian. Please fix these problems when you develop the updated templates. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241222150900","author":"Jonesey95","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Jonesey95-20241222150900-Smasongarrison-20241222150700","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20241222181400-Jonesey95-20241222150900"]}}-->
thanks. I definitely will. I think an else statement must have gotten misaligned. My plan is to roll the core template back to something less complex and then slowly build it up like I did for Template:Occupation by nationality and century category header. SMasonGarrison18:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241222181400","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20241222181400-Jonesey95-20241222150900","replies":[]}}-->
I received your comments on Laurel. I don't think being in Vogue is trivial and is in fact independent. Gregpolk (talk) 18:41, 22 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241222184100","author":"Gregpolk","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Gregpolk-20241222184100-Laurel","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20241222190000-Gregpolk-20241222184100"]}}-->
I recommend reviewing the criteria for notability, because I don't think Laurel Charleston meets the notability criteria. I did not say anything about being in Vogue, so I don't understand what comments you're referring to. SMasonGarrison19:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241222190000","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20241222190000-Gregpolk-20241222184100","replies":[]}}-->
Kyriakos Amiridis is a perfect illustration of over categorization leading to difficult navigation for articles. He is currently in the categories Greek diplomats, Greek Ambassadors to Brazil and another Greek Ambassadors Category. He is the only article in either of those Greek Ambassadors to x categories. All Ambassadors are by definition diplomats, so we should diffuse Ambassadors out of the x country diplomats Category. So we can put him in Ambassadors of Greeks, Ambassadors to Brazil and the one other Ambassafor Category. This will give us 3 categories that actually will aide navigation between his article and other articles. It will need to bd proposed at AfD. I also think we should rename Greek diplomats to Diplomats for Greece or maybe Diplomats of Greece. I am sure what we care about here is that thry were employed by Greece as diplomats. We do not care if they ever stepped on Greek soil, or if they were actually Dano-Germanic members of the Royal house, if they were acting as diplomats for Greece we want then in the catehory. On the other hand if they were Greek born who had newly arrived in Washington DC and were hired to work for the US state department then we want then in Diplomats for the United States, not Greek diplomats. In theory there might be some use to group together French nationals, or Spanish nationals, or any other nationals of a given country who were diplomats for the UN, or otherwise diplomats not for their home country, but I think we should make sure because of overlap Category issues to exclude the direct placement of diplomats for France in such a category, and I think we would want to make sure we actually have enough French nationals serving as diplomats not for France, etc. Before creating the category. Ralph Bunche is for example someone who would go in American diplomats as he was an American who worked as a diplomat for the UN but was not a diplomat for the United States. Currently the American diplomats Category mainly overlaps with the contents under Ambassadors of the United Ststes, but it does also contain some people who held diplomatic office without having been an ambassador. I am not sure that for all these people that office is defining. Some of them are primarily notable for being elected politicians, involved in acting or other things and it is not clear their brief time with the diplomatic corps is defining. The person who comes to mind the fastest is Ahirly Temple Black, but since she was at one point chief protocol officer I suspect her diplomatic career is defining *she may have also been an ambassador). It is hard to say if she would be notable without her acting career, and since she was actress long before she was a diplomat it is impossible to do the "can we find enough sources just on her diplomatic career" because many of the sources that exist are of the "where is this actress now" type. However I think the length of her diplomatic career makes it defining. However not every job anyone has ever had is defining, and this applies as much to people who briefly worked for the US state department as for people who were briefly a flight attendant or who passed the bar exam but moved on to some other endeavor after maybe being involved in 1 or 2 cases that were of no real note, and their involvement as a junior lawyer at the law firm may have mattered little.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223024100","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241223024100-Kyriakos_Amiridis","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20241223025000-Johnpacklambert-20241223024100","c-Johnpacklambert-20241223151100-Johnpacklambert-20241223024100","c-Johnpacklambert-20241223160400-Johnpacklambert-20241223024100","c-Johnpacklambert-20241223161100-Johnpacklambert-20241223024100","c-Johnpacklambert-20241223161500-Johnpacklambert-20241223024100"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
My immediate response is that it doesn't seem that problematic. I think that the solution would be to diffuse by century. I have to think more about this though, you've got some good points in here. SMasonGarrison02:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223025000","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20241223025000-Johnpacklambert-20241223024100","replies":[]}}-->
For example Filip Grzegorzewski who was head of an EU cooperative office is a Polish national who worked as a diplomat, but is not a diplomat for Poland. I think these are 2 separate things. I also think the high rate of the Diplomats for x also being x nationals who are diplomats means we really should apply overlap cat rules and not place Diplomats for x in the x nationals who are diplomats Category for the sane country.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223151100","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241223151100-Johnpacklambert-20241223024100","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
Then there are the various diplomats by city category. In the case of Poland several of these are Israeli diplomats who were raised in that city, and at least 1 is a Soviet diplomat. I think if we leaved these under Diplomats by nationality, and created a separate diplomats by country scheme it would lessen the confusion.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223160400","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241223160400-Johnpacklambert-20241223024100","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20241223160700-Johnpacklambert-20241223160400"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
Hmmm, that's not a bad idea. It would be similar to how we do clergy by country of work. Could you post your suggestion on a visible talk page? That way you could get feedback/sense of how other people feel about it before you spend a lot of time organizing. SMasonGarrison16:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223160700","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20241223160700-Johnpacklambert-20241223160400","replies":[]}}-->
Do you have a good idea of what talk page to use. We already had Diplomats of the Polish People's Republic, so I placed that in Diplomats by country of origin. I will see if there is a related Wikiproject.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223161100","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241223161100-Johnpacklambert-20241223024100","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
I am going to post it at the categorization talk page. I did post a note that I would post it at the international relations Wikiproject page. If you can think of anywhere else to post it and do so that would be good.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223161500","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241223161500-Johnpacklambert-20241223024100","replies":["c-Johnpacklambert-20241223161700-Johnpacklambert-20241223161500"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
It is actually Wikipedia:Wikiproject Categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223161700","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241223161700-Johnpacklambert-20241223161500","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20241223162500-Johnpacklambert-20241223161700"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
Great! I think that the Wikipedia:Wikiproject Categories is the perfect spot for it! (And I think it's great to see you seeking opinions of others on categorization changes!!!!) SMasonGarrison16:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223162500","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20241223162500-Johnpacklambert-20241223161700","replies":[]}}-->
The article Mohamed Larbi Zitout is the only one in the category Algerian Ambassadors to Lidya. However no where in that article does it say Zitout was an ambassador to Lidya. It says he was a "civil servant" in Lidya, which appears to be an irregular way to say he was working for Algeria as a diplomat there. That is not the same as being an ambassador. I would remove him from the category, because he does not belong, but I do not want to do an out of process emptying. He should be removed from the category because it is not justified.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223220700","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241223220700-Mohamed_Larbi_Zitout","replies":["c-Smasongarrison-20241223221800-Johnpacklambert-20241223220700"],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
Good find! I did a little digging into the sourcing, and I think you're right. I've nominated the category, thank you for drawing my attention to it. SMasonGarrison22:18, 23 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223221800","author":"Smasongarrison","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smasongarrison-20241223221800-Johnpacklambert-20241223220700","replies":[]}}-->
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I think these are worse than you suggest. People are often arrested in places where thry are not from, abd even in places where thry are not charged. So location of where you are arrested is trivial. Being arrested is also not defining. Where you are arrested even more so.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241224041500","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241224041500-Politicians_arrested_in_categories","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
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The category Austrian Ambassadors to Norway consists of Klemens von Metternich. There are several issues here. 1- Ambassadors are a by country office, so Austrian Ambassadors means Ambassadors if the Austrian state formed in 1918. We have a different Ambassadors of the Austrian Empire for people in the time of Merrernich. 2- No where in the article does it say Metternich was ambassador to Norway. It appears he was Ambassador to Saxony and Ambassador to France. He was appointed to be Ambassador to the Russian Empire but never took up that office going to France instead. So it looks like Metternich does not belong so we should delete the category as empty.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:08, 25 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241225170800","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241225170800-Austrian_Ambassadors_to_Norway","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
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This category consists of Benedikt de Caché, who fails to be a proper person for inclusion. He is currently in Category:Diplomats of the Habsburg monarchy, which seems correct. He far pre-dates Austria as the state sending Ambassadors. He also would not have bern sent to Piland but to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:12, 25 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241225171200","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241225171200-Austrian_Ambassadors_to_Poland","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
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This category has no one in it who fits the category. There is one who was an ambassador of the Austrian Empire to Sweden. I have placed him in Ambassadors of the Austrian Empire. Then there is a 1 article sub-cat of Ambassadors of Austria-Hungary to Sweden. We probably should rearrange things do that is upmerged to Ambassadors to Sweden and Ambassadors of the Austria-Hungary, and merge the 1 direct article to Ambassadors to Sweden.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:18, 25 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241225171800","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241225171800-Austrian_Ambassadors_to_Sweden","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
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This category I think has 9 total articles, of which only 8 are Biographical and then 1 list. Those articles are spread across 21 total sub-cats. The largest sub-cat has 4 articles, 1 list and 3 Biographical articles. It seems that all this could be in 1 category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:45, 26 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241226004500","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241226004500-Ambassadors_of_Belize","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
Arlette Dagnon Vignikin is in 7 Ambassadors categories. 1 does not apply. She was not ambassador to China, but held a low level appointment. Since she is the only contents of that category I am not removing her. The other categories are all also 1 entry categories, and all being held at once.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:47, 26 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241226004700","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241226004700-Arlette_Dagnon_Vignikin","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
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Bautista Saavedra is in the categories Bolivian Ambassadors to Belgium and Bolivian Ambassadors to the Netherlands. There is no mention of him having held either office in the article. We need to remove him from both categories since we should not have articles in categories not supported by the text. He is the only article in both categories however.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:16, 26 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241226041600","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241226041600-Bautista_Saavedra","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
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This category has 10 articles, 8 Biographical and 2 lists. They are spread across 7 sub-cats. No sub-cat has more than 3 articles. By ambassador standards this is actually not a overly used category, since most people seem to at most only been holders of 2 different ambassadorships. It is small enough that A-it is pretty clear we can upmerge everything just to Ambassadors of Palau with no problem. B-as far as I can tell all the assignments her were resident Ambassadors, so upmerging to both makes sense and C- this is so small everywhere having any subcats does not make sense. I think this would a doable case of nominating all 7 categories for upmerger.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:55, 27 December 2024 (UTC)__DTREPLYBUTTONSCONTENT__-->__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241227175500","author":"Johnpacklambert","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Johnpacklambert-20241227175500-Ambassadors_of_Palau","replies":[],"displayName":"John Pack Lambert"}}-->
SjahrirLahir(1945-02-24)24 Februari 1945Kudus, Jawa Tengah, Wilayah Kolonial JepangMeninggal28 Juli 2008(2008-07-28) (umur 63) SingapuraKebangsaanIndonesiaAlmamaterUniversitas Indonesia Universitas HarvardPekerjaanAktivis, ekonom, politisiDikenal atasTokoh MalariJabatanAnggota Dewan Pertimbangan PresidenPenggantiGinandjar KartasasmitaSuami/istriKartini PanjaitanAnakPandu Patria Sjahrir GitaOrang tuaMa’amoen Al Rasyid (ayah)Roesma Malik (ibu) Dr. Sjahrir (24 Februari 1945 –&#...
The facade of the Central Civic Library of Turin in 1929. Side towards Corso Palestro and Via BertrandiThe Biblioteca Civica Centrale of Turin, Italy, is a public library established in 1869.[1] It belongs to the Biblioteche Civiche Torinesi [it] library system. Among its collections are manuscripts produced by Vincenzo Gioberti. References ^ Biblioteca civica centrale. Anagrafe delle biblioteche italiane [it] (Registry of Italian Libraries) (in Italian). Ist...
هذه المقالة بحاجة لصندوق معلومات. فضلًا ساعد في تحسين هذه المقالة بإضافة صندوق معلومات مخصص إليها. علم الوراثة الطبية علم الوراثة الطبية (بالإنجليزية: Medical Genetics) هو تخصص طبي يشمل التشخيص والتعامل مع الأمراض الوراثية.[1][2][3][4] علم الوراثة الطبية يختلف عن علم...
Hegel adalah pembela panlogisme Panlogisme adalah paham falsafat bahwa alam semesta adalah penjelmaan dari Logos.[1] Logos adalah penjelmaan dari perkataan yang diucapkan oleh Tuhan sesuai dengan angan-angan-Nya.[1] Paham ini dibela oleh Hegel.[1] Referensi ^ a b c Shadily, Hassan. Ensiklopedi Indonesia. Jakarta: Ichtiar Baru - Van Hoeve Elsevier Publishing Projects. 1984. Pengawasan otoritas Microsoft Academic
Test vehicles developed by SpaceX Grasshopper in September 2012 Falcon 9 prototypes were experimental flight test reusable rockets that performed vertical takeoffs and landings.[1] The project was privately funded by SpaceX, with no funds provided by any government until later on.[2] Two prototypes were built, and both were launched from the ground.[3] The earliest prototype was Grasshopper. It was announced in 2011[4] and began low-altitude, low-velocity hover...
Defunct flying squadron of the Royal Air Force No. 55 Squadron RAFSquadron badgeActive27 April 1917 – 1 April 1918 (RFC)1 April 1918 – 22 January 1920 (RAF)1 February 1920 – 1 November 19461 September 1960 – 15 October 199315 October 1993 – 31 March 19961 November 1996 – 20 January 2011Country United KingdomBranch Royal Air ForceTypeFlying squadronMotto(s)Latin: Nil nos tremefacit(Nothing shakes us)[1][2]Battle honours Western Front (1917–1918)* Arras Ypres ...
Final Piala Winners UEFA 1999TurnamenPiala Winners UEFA 1998–1999 Mallorca Lazio 1 2 Tanggal19 Mei 1999StadionVilla Park, BirminghamPemain Terbaik Christian Vieri (Lazio)WasitGünter Benkö (Austria)Penonton33.021← 1998 Final Piala Winners UEFA 1999 adalah pertandingan final ke-39 dari turnamen sepak bola Piala Winners UEFA untuk menentukan juara musim 1998–1999. Pertandingan ini mempertemukan tim Italia Lazio dengan tim Spanyol Mallorca dan diselenggarakan pada 19 Mei 1999 di Villa...
2010 film by Barry W. Blaustein Peep WorldTheatrical release posterDirected byBarry W. BlausteinWritten byPeter HimmelsteinProduced by Keith Calder Felipe Marino Joe Neurauter Starring Judy Greer Michael C. Hall Taraji P. Henson Kate Mara Ron Rifkin Ben Schwartz Sarah Silverman Lesley Ann Warren Rainn Wilson CinematographyTobias DatumEdited by Jeff Werner Evan Schiff Steve Welch Music byJeff CardoniProductioncompanyOccupant FilmsDistributed byIFC FilmsRelease dates September 15, 201...
This article does not cite any sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed.Find sources: Most Beloved – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR (December 2009) (Learn how and when to remove this template message) 1995 studio album by Leslie CheungMost BelovedStudio album by Leslie CheungReleased7 July 1995 (1995-07-07)GenrePopLanguageManda...
Municipality in Batangas, Philippines Municipality in Calabarzon, PhilippinesRosarioMunicipalityMunicipality of RosarioFrom top, left to right: downtown Rosario, Gualberto Avenue, I Love Rosario at Laurel Park, Rosario Cultural and Sports Center, the Grotto, Tombol Hill, Risen Christ monument, Rosario skyline viewed from Tombol Hill SealNicknames: Rice Granary of Batangas, Agro-Industrial Capital of Southern Tagalog Home of Sinukmani Festival[1] Anthem: Himno ng Rosario[2 ...
Smith & Wesson Модель 686 Smith & Wesson Модель 686, зі стволом 6-дюйми.Тип РевольверПоходження СШАІсторія використанняОператори Див. ОператориІсторія виробництваРозроблено 1980Виготовлення 1981-1999, 2012-н.ч.Варіанти 686P686PP686-(1-7)Round ButtSquare Butt K-frame686+ХарактеристикиВага 2 lb 12 oz (1,25 кг)Довж...
Robert H. GrubbsLahirRobert Howard Grubbs(1942-02-27)27 Februari 1942Marshall County, Kentucky, A.S.Meninggal19 Desember 2021(2021-12-19) (umur 79)Duarte, California, A.S.PendidikanUniversitas Florida (BS)Universitas Florida (MS)Universitas Columbia (PhD)Dikenal atasKatalis untuk metatesis olefin dalam sintesis organikSuami/istriHelen O'KanePenghargaan Penghargaan Tolman (2002) Penghargaan Linus Pauling (2003) Penghargaan Nobel Kimia (2005) Medali Emas Institut Kimia Amerika (2010) ForMe...
List of events ← 2021 2020 2019 2022 in Bulgaria → 2023 2024 2025 Decades: 2000s 2010s 2020s See also: Other events of 2022 Timeline of Bulgarian history Events in the year 2022 in Bulgaria. Incumbents President: Rumen Radev Vice President: Iliana Iotova Prime Minister: Kiril Petkov (by 2 August) Galab Donev (since 2 August, acting) Events Ongoing – COVID-19 pandemic in Bulgaria 2 January – The country reports its first 12 cases of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron variant in five vaccin...
See also: Nowosielec, Masovian Voivodeship Village in Subcarpathian Voivodeship, PolandNowosielecVillageNowosielecCoordinates: 50°27′N 22°10′E / 50.450°N 22.167°E / 50.450; 22.167Country PolandVoivodeshipSubcarpathianCountyNiskoGminaNiskoPopulation1,500Websitehttp://www.nowosielec.pl Nowosielec [nɔvɔˈɕɛlɛt͡s] is a village in the administrative district of Gmina Nisko, within Nisko County, Subcarpathian Voivodeship, in south-eastern Poland.[1]...
1957 television film directed by Raymond Menmuir Tomorrow's ChildAd from 9 April 1957Based onplay by John CoatesScreenplay byAlan SeymourDirected byRaymond MenmuirCountry of originAustraliaOriginal languageEnglishProductionRunning time60 minsProduction companyABCOriginal releaseNetworkABCRelease9 April 1957 (1957-04-09) (Sydney) (live)[1]26 April 1957 (1957-04-26) (Melbourne) (taped)[2] Tomorrow's Child is an Australian television film, or rather ...
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County in Illinois, United States Not to be confused with Clinton, Illinois. County in IllinoisClinton CountyCountyClinton County CourthouseLocation within the U.S. state of IllinoisIllinois's location within the U.S.Coordinates: 38°37′N 89°25′W / 38.61°N 89.42°W / 38.61; -89.42Country United StatesState IllinoisFounded1824Named forDeWitt ClintonSeatCarlyleLargest cityBreeseArea • Total503 sq mi (1,300 km2) • Lan...
لمعانٍ أخرى، طالع جيف بيتس (توضيح). هذه المقالة يتيمة إذ تصل إليها مقالات أخرى قليلة جدًا. فضلًا، ساعد بإضافة وصلة إليها في مقالات متعلقة بها. (يوليو 2019) جيف بيتس معلومات شخصية الميلاد 27 مارس 1976 (47 سنة) مواطنة الولايات المتحدة الحياة العملية المهنة رجل أعمال...
