User talk:CountHacker

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Kim, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Kim dynasty. Such links are usually incorrect, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. (Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.)

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Hey, I sent you a response to your post about the merge proposal, and then I reworded the response. Please check out the full response, b/c I'm sure it will be interesting to you! (I'm afraid you'll read the first draft and ignore the good parts I added, hence I'm contacting you here.) Thanks for engaging and looking up cites! Because of your reliance on cites, I feel really confident you will change your opinion to favor merge! Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:13, 31 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

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I saw you moved Tae Kum-ch'wi to remove the diacritic; for people, I think WP:NCKO doesn't currently prescribe renaming to remove diacritics. I think it only applies to places. Furthermore, I think per WP:TSC we should keep the diacritics and create redirs:Sometimes the most appropriate title contains diacritics (accent marks), dashes, or other letters and characters not found on most English-language keyboards. This can make it difficult to navigate to the article directly. In such cases, provide redirects from versions of the title that use only standard keyboard characters. Thanks for your work on Korea-related pages! toobigtokale (talk) 20:44, 8 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I personally agree with you on diacritics, I argued for keeping diacritics for McCune–Reischauer in as seen here in this RM proposal. It's only due to this decision that I don't use diacritics for the page names. Hopefully we can get more of support for the use of diacritics in McCune–Reischauer romanized page titles in the future. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 05:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think F4U's reading of the policy wasn't quite right; I had the same impression as them until quite recently. A strict reading of the policy (admittedly I haven't gone back through talk page archives and tried to figure out the intent) is that the restriction only applies to place names for North Korea.

Not sure if you saw, but recently I actually proposed striking that bit out entirely from the naming conventions page. Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Korean)#McCune–Reischauer in titles. I'd appreciate your thoughts in the discussions here if you have any. toobigtokale (talk) 07:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

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Hello, CountHacker. Thank you for your work on Yi Hyon-un. North8000, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

Good start. Wording needs much work including dates. Happy editing!

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North8000 (talk) 18:50, 20 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi CountHacker, thank you for your work on Kim Ye (aristocrat). Another editor, North8000, has reviewed it as part of our new pages patrol and left the following comment:

Nice work

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North8000 (talk) 22:04, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi CountHacker, thank you for your work on Ansan Kim clan. Another editor, North8000, has reviewed it as part of our new pages patrol and left the following comment:

Thanks for your work

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North8000 (talk) 22:07, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi CountHacker, thank you for your work on Kim Ŭn-bu. Another editor, North8000, has reviewed it as part of our new pages patrol and left the following comment:

Nice work

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North8000 (talk) 22:07, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi CountHacker, thank you for your work on Wang Sing-nyŏm. Another editor, North8000, has reviewed it as part of our new pages patrol and left the following comment:

Nice work

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North8000 (talk) 22:08, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi CountHacker, thank you for your work on Yang Kyu. Another editor, North8000, has reviewed it as part of our new pages patrol and left the following comment:

Nice work

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North8000 (talk) 22:08, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi CountHacker, thank you for your work on Kim Ye (rebel). Another editor, North8000, has reviewed it as part of our new pages patrol and left the following comment:

Good start

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North8000 (talk) 22:08, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi CountHacker, thank you for your work on Tae Kŭm-ch'wi. Another editor, North8000, has reviewed it as part of our new pages patrol and left the following comment:

Thanks for your work

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North8000 (talk) 22:09, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi CountHacker, thank you for your work on Tae (Korean given name). Another editor, North8000, has reviewed it as part of our new pages patrol and left the following comment:

Nice work

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North8000 (talk) 22:09, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hello, CountHacker,

Thank you for creating Chae (Korean given name).

I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:

Regarding the split, I would suggest reading the guidance at WP:APOEXAMPLE - names generally aren't considered notable unless there are at least two wikilinkable people with that name.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|BrigadierG}}. Remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.

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BrigadierG (talk) 23:13, 2 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

The Korean Barnstar For your contributions to Korea-related articles. Thank you and all the best! toobigtokale 03:41, 27 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

104.232.119.107 (talk) 03:41, 27 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

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Hi CountHacker. I'm looking for experienced editors to interview here. Feel free to pass if you're not interested. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 10:13, 11 January 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hi CountHacker,

I noticed your recent moves to MR, like with Yeon Gaesomun’s sons. While WP:NCKO supports that, do you think in some cases — like when RR is more common in modern sources — COMMONNAME, CONSISTENCY, and RECOGNIZABILITY might take priority?

Just wanted to hear your thoughts. 3legsbird (talk) 09:40, 24 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

@3legsbird, you're correct that WP:COMMONNAME takes priority, just not the way you think it does. RR, due to being somewhat new-er, is not more common than MR. In fact, MR is usually more common than RR if you try and do a proper search. Most English language sources about Korean historical figures tend to be academical sources on Korean history, which overwhelming use MR romanization. However, for the more well-known topics, WP:COMMONNAME is not applicable as there are sources that use MR and RR, meaning that there is not a romanization that the "significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources" all use. Therefore, one defaults to WP:NCKO. For Yŏn Kaesomun, there are a decent amount of sources that use MR and a decent amount of sources that use RR. I also disagree with the notation that RR somehow has more RECOGNIZABILITY than MR. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 15:41, 24 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

I’m not favoring either side — I just think both forms are used equally, so neither should take precedence. It makes sense to treat them as balanced and follow policy accordingly. 3legsbird (talk) 05:24, 25 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

A research (in Korean; click on "KCI 원문 내려받기" to download) from 2021 says that "Koguryo" (or "Koguryŏ") and "Parhae" are more commonly used than "Goguryeo" and "Balhae" respectively. If you are interested in moving those articles, this may be helpful.

(As a side note, I get the impression that there was a tendency to favor RR among editors in the early years of Wikipedia.) 172.56.232.85 (talk) 17:20, 25 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks so much for this source, it will be useful for sure in the future. I do intend to see those article moved for sure sometime. I do think I would try to do a multi-move and get everything from Puyŏ to Koryŏ moved all at once. I probably won't plan to do so right away, as I would still need to collect some more sources, such as the one you provided. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 17:53, 25 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Talk:Balhae#Requested move 22 August 2025 172.56.55.229 (talk) 01:44, 23 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

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Svartner (talk) 12:10, 26 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Just a heads up: I'm considering proposing that we adopt RR for historical topics. I've been deliberating this for a long time. It's taken me months to form arguments in my head around this but I think I'm approaching ready.

I'd maybe put a pause on making more bold changes to MR. I know it's a bit unfortunate with the recent move discussions, but better we discuss sooner rather than later. I'll maybe propose within next few weeks. grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 03:10, 28 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Even if you do want to move to RR, it should not be "pure RR", RR users like Kyung Moon Hwang use Yi for 이 and Kim for 김, rather than I or Gim. That was one of my biggest gripes with the old NCKO that insisted on Kim Myŏngguk and Kim Yusin being known as Gim Myeong-guk and Gim Yu-sin. I still think it is not time to adopt RR, as it is not more popular than MR at this point in time. It also makes it harder to find more obscure historical personages who are only mentioned in English by a scholarly journal article. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 03:26, 28 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

On the pure RR bit; research would need to be done first to determine how to format people names. WP:ROMANKO#Romanizations used in books gets us some of the way there; I'd need to flesh out more before propose.

On the hindering research bit; while that's a valid concern, I feel like it's lesser than the fundamental issues around familiarity with MR. Also, I have a gut feeling that MR can sometimes make it harder to find pages for people who only know how to use RR. I'll need to research this a bit more.

I'll keep deliberating this; it bothers me a lot. I'm trying to maximize usefulness of these articles for as many people as possible, and the visceral negative reactions we've had to deal with over and over, almost uniformly in a single direction, is a serious red flag imo. grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 04:01, 28 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Most of the negative reactions tend to be due to consistency, most articles are just titled by according to the old names. In all fairness, they do have a point that it might be jarring to see Old Choson and Joseon spelled in a different fashion. I would probably try to do a mass move attempt of all the historical Korean states, but that will require a lot of evidence. I think you've done a decent job so far with WP:ROMANKO#Romanizations used in books and I should probably help with that effort too. It's a lot easier to move a random Joseon painter without any RR sources versus a more prominent topic will have some sources in RR. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 04:13, 28 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I disagree on assessment of the negative reactions; I think many people just viscerally hate MR. It's hard to prove, but imo even if consistency wasn't a factor, I think people would still express this kinda hatred towards MR. The system is now largely confined to academia, and the diacritics are annoying to type. I grew up in SK and never really saw or interacted with MR until I started editing Wikipedia and reading academic works.

For the record, I don't have significant personal feelings on either romanization system. Just letters on the screen to me. I'm just trying to meet the needs of readers, and imo they've expressed generally the same opinion over and over. grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 04:24, 28 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I don't think anyone's personal distaste for a particular romanization should factor into what romanization system to use. I personally dislike how both MR and RR romanize 신 as Sin instead Shin, giving us Yi Sunsin and Kim Yusin, when personally I think Yi Sunshin and Kim Yushin would reflect actual names better. At the end of the day, most historical Korean topics won't get talked outside of academia and MR is English language academia's preferred option as of now. Maybe, one day it will change but that hasn't happened yet, with currently only South Korean academics using RR, and North Korea and the rest of the world mainly using MR. The goal of Wikipedia should show the names of the topics as they are commonly known, instead of promoting a RR because some readers are disgusted by MR. I think that the current WP:NCKO is fine as it is. Pre-1945 concepts are more likely to be commonly found via MR, whereas post-45 will be more common in RR. If there's outliers, NCKO #1 states that the obvious common name should take the precedent. And I think that the move discussions (both successful and unsuccessful) are doing a good job in keeping the current consensus, ensuring that historical topics are known by their common names, rather than a mandated romanization. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 08:35, 28 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

I don't think anyone's personal distaste for a particular romanization should factor into what romanization system to use.

To be clear, this is not what I am suggesting. I am using the widespread negative reaction as a proxy for measuring widespread general non-academic understandings of romanization. I think you are missing the forest for the trees. Imo being technically correct but much more obscure is worse than serving more people in the way that they need it. I don't think we'll convince each other at present though grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 16:48, 28 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Also I just split off WP:KO-BOOK; welcome to contribute to it! grapesurgeon (seefooddiet) (talk) 17:51, 28 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks I'll probably contribute to it a bit on the weekend when I find the time. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 23:08, 28 August 2025 (UTC)Reply

It is sad that the South Korean government promulgated RR and made people in South Korea become unfamiliar with MR. ~2025-42652-69 (talk) 21:55, 23 December 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hi CountHacker. Thank you for your work on Ch'oe Uch'ŏng. Another editor, SunDawn, has reviewed it as part of new pages patrol and left the following comment:

Thank you for creating the article! Have a blessed and beautiful weekend!

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✠ SunDawn ✠ Contact me! 03:50, 6 September 2025 (UTC)Reply

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