This template falls within the scope of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style articles
This template falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing.
I've moved all the "ThisCountry-related articles" to a COMMON sub-section. I think it doesn't matter that some of them are policies and other guides, because there is no clash for any country, i.e. there is no policy about France and guide about France.
Furthermore, I propose splitting them to a completely different template. I think that some more over-specific links should join, like Chemistry, Math, etc. Let's leave only very general and very basic stuff here. Comments? --Kubanczyk (talk) 18:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Although numbers is included in the list, it's not immediately obvious (being listed under "D" for "Dates and numbers"). For something so basic, I think it ought to have its own entry and have been bold and made it so. Bazza (talk) 14:14, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't sound a bad idea, but you'd better bring it up there (i.e. at WT:MOSNUM - which I should warn you is a page where tensions traditionally run inexplicably high).--Kotniski (talk) 14:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Really long
This template is really long. Can we get some "hide/show" sections, so that pages that are primarily connected to a single aspect could display a shorter list? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:45, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done Took the format from another series I was working on, WP:PROCESS, and used it as the guide for this one. Shortened the titles for some sections. The section "Help" are in my opinion unnecessary, it can be removed. ChyranandChloe (talk) 01:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Subsections
Is it possible to have subsections appear on the list, once a main page is highlighted. For example Wikipedia:Words to avoid has its own entry, Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words is in the articles 'See also' section and seems closely related. it would make sense to me if once you were on 'words to avoid', that the navbox then displayed the pages that are related so one would get:
This has been live for a while without objection so it probably safe to say this is acceptable. Basically I replace links to the individual MoS to the Categories as you see it now Gnevin (talk) 12:27, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is a discussion in MOS Talk page regarding ways to improve searching/indexing for the many Manual Of Style (MOS) pages in WP. It seems to me that this template Template:Style could be vastly improved: in addition to pointing the reader to the MOS categories (which this template already does) it could also list all the important of the MOS-related articles. The key goal is to help readers quickly find MOS-related articles, and help them save time so they dont have to visit the categories, etc. Putting the important MOS articles directly in the NavBox will help readers quickly and directly find the info they need. I'm willing to improve the template in that manner, but I welcome comments. --Noleander (talk) 18:04, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like this template used to have a fairly comprehensive list of MOS articles: here is a version from 2009 here which contains specific articles. The layout is not very clean, but at least users could get to the MOS pages in a single click. I don't see a discussion above in this Talk page that explains why the articles were removed from the template. I'm proposing to improve the template to be the best of both worlds: Maintain the current category-oriented hierarchy, but also include many of the important MOS pages, so users can get to their destination in one click. I dont suggest using the 2008-2009 layout, but instead something more concise and user-friendly. Of course, if the template gets too large, the use of collapsible Show/Hide subsections would be employed. Thoughts? --Noleander (talk) 18:14, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There are lots of great NavBoxes out there to use as examples, but here is one that is rather user-friendly, and fits quite a few articles in a compact space: Template:WorldWarIISegmentUnderInfoBox. Notice two features: (a) the use of Show/Hide section; and (b) the hierarchical layout. Both of which could be used in this MOS template. --Noleander (talk) 18:24, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I propose to replace the current template with this new template in a few days. If anyone has any suggestions, speak up. --Noleander (talk) 16:05, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To difficult to maintain which is why I moved to the current category based system . It is also to busy , too many links Gnevin (talk) 23:17, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Maintainability is not an issue: there are many editors, including myself, willing to maintain it. You say it is "too busy", yet it is comparable to scores of other NavBoxes throughout WP, both in size and number of articles it holds. The current MOS navBox is rather odd: it contains only links to categories ... there are no other examples of such category-oriented NavBoxes within WP. Instead, the MOS NavBox should be consistent with the hundreds of other WP navboxes, and contain links to pages, not categories. There are hundreds of topics in WP that are indexed by both categories and article-oriented NavBoxes ... MOS indexing should be no different. --Noleander (talk) 01:12, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Art: The discussion at the MOS talk page revolves around converting pages to subpages, not renaming them. Questions: What makes you think this sidebar template will be harder to maintain than any other sidebar in WP? Of the hundreds of sidebar templates in WP, can you name one that lists categories, rather than articles/pages? Why should this sidebar navbox be different? Please refer to Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates which says:
The grouping of articles by one method neither requires nor forbids the use of the other methods for the same informational grouping. Instead, each method of organizing information has its own advantages and disadvantages, and is applied for the most part independently of the other methods following the guidelines and standards that have evolved on Wikipedia for each of these systems.Accordingly, these methods should not be considered in conflict with each other. Rather, they are synergistic, each one complementing the others.
If the size is the major objection, a compromise would be to have a Show/Hide choice next to each section, as is shown in "draft B": Template talk:Style/draft B (shown at right). That way the navbox would initially be small (as it currently is) but users could expand by clicking the Show button. And the Navbox would then be consistent with the other WP navboxes, by listing articles/pages. --Noleander (talk) 01:58, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
WT:MOS#Resources for this RFC lists 82 subpages and candidate subpages. Your template only lists 55. Of course we can expect changes in the list to result from that discussion. The discussion at the MOS talk page started with converting pages to subpages, but now it says: "contain the unexamined and disorderly proliferation of guidelines ... pages can be merged (mutually, or into WP:MOS); or that some can be abandoned."
I don't have a good answer for "What makes [me] think this sidebar template will be harder to maintain than any other sidebar in WP?", except that Manual of Style regulars seem completely unaware of obscure subpages. I don't understand why you included the quote, which says that the grouping of articles in one system (like the existing Style template) doesn't have to match the grouping of articles on other pages – to me, that quote argues against your own conclusion. Art LaPella (talk) 02:14, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The current category-based system is not intuitive. Most people expect that the links are going to link to individual pages, not categories, so if the pages aren't listed explicitly, most people are going to just assume they don't exist. This proposal is an improvement, in my opinion. Kaldari (talk) 21:20, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Art: I'm sorry, I dont follow what you are saying. There are hundreds of Sidbar Navboxes throughout WP that contain articles/pages (not categories). The current Style navbox is the only Navbox within WP that is violating that convention. The quote from Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates makes it clear that a Navbox is an independent from Categories. If a user wants to search for MOS articles via Categories, the user should scroll to the bottom of a MOS article, and click on the "Category: MOS" link at the bottom ... that is how Categories work. Navboxes in the upper right always list articles/pages, not categories. It is not clear to me why you repeatedly bring up the possibility that the list of MOS pages may change over time: of course it will. But that is true of all WP articles, pages, and Navboxes, and is not a reason to deviate from the Navbox convention. Your statistic about "82 pages" is very misleading: only 57 pages are valid (the other 25 are proposed or obsolete). Also: what do you think of the "show/hide" proposal: where the main dividing bars are the existing Category links, and the user can click "show" to see the articles/pages in that topic (shown above)? --Noleander (talk) 19:19, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't (or no longer) disagree much with any of that. Yes, a close reading of your quote in context says what you say it says (although ironically it could also be used to justify "the only Navbox within WP that is violating that convention"). "It is not clear to me why you repeatedly bring up the possibility"; true, that's why I said I don't have a good answer. Yes, when I looked through the list of 25 articles, most are inactive, historical, proposals or drafts (but not all of them; Islam, for instance, is included in your own list.) Show/hide – do other navboxes work that way? As a practical matter, the existing Style template makes me click more than one category, because that is faster than meditating on whether the issue I have in mind is best defined as "content", "formatting", or "layout". So just seeing those headings without the subpages doesn't help me much. The "Search the MOS" field on top is preferable to the bottom; I have often argued that the entire page should direct attention to that field, with almost all distractions moved elsewhere. But it does seem likely that the other subpage discussion will produce its own means of searching them, so I think the two discussions should be brought together. Art LaPella (talk) 17:32, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Following your suggestion, I moved the Search field from the bottom to top in draft B of the Navbox. Regarding the situation where a user is hunting for a MOS guideline, but doesnt know which topic area it is in: Say the it takes 3 tries at subtopics before the user finds the correct guideline. In the current category-oriented NavBox, that is six clicks to get to the guidline (topic A; back; topic B; back; topic C; select). Draft A (which shows all the pages without show/hide) takes only a single click. Draft B (show/hide) takes four clicks (topic A show; topic B show; topic C show; select). Thus, both draft A and draft B are superior to the current Navbox, click-wise. --Noleander (talk) 22:33, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not seeing any additional feedback, I've moved "draft B" into the public template. More feedback and ideas are always useful. --Noleander (talk) 18:41, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Noleander, let me say how much I appreciate your work on this issue – and also your attention to the related matter of restructuring the Manual of Style. The RFC proposal for that has been successful (21 votes to 2), and I think early discussion between you and me did something to fill in the gaps and to show up the desirability of that change. I remain sympathetic to your proposal here: a more detailed "signpost" would be great. But there are sore and sensitive disagreements affecting the Manual just now (as you can see from recent sections at WT:MOS), and we have to sequence things methodically to make things go well. I want to develop a schedule for implementing the restructure. I see no reason to exclude the template reform that you are advocating from that schedule; but I do think it belongs after the restructuring effort, as Art LaPella appears to suggest above.
Let's collaborate on all this. I hope you will join in at WT:MOS as we all work out what steps to take, and what order to take them in. I hope that Art will be active in that also; I think he is a serious advocate of simplicity and retrievability for the guidelines.
I don't believe any of us wants to go back to the old template. So I suggest we regard this template change as complete. We can change it again to accommodate the restructuring effort, if any. Art LaPella (talk) 20:53, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As for my contribution to the restructuring effort, I once asked why it really matters how we name the articles. The rest of you seem to have that answer better than I do, so I consider it a good time to watch. Art LaPella (talk) 20:57, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Section links: to page? or to category?
An aspect of this navbox that may confuse some users is when a section, such as "Music", (which has a Category) also has a dedicated "Music" page. When a user clicks on the "Music" section link, where should the user be vectored: to the MOS Music category? or to the MOS-Music page? --Noleander (talk) 18:46, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think the only answer is the category. Most of the categories don't have that problem, so a user familiar with the other links will be expecting links to categories. If a person clicks "Music" because he is looking for the dedicated Music page, he will quickly see "Music" among his choices. But if a person is looking for the music samples page, clicks "Music", and is sent to the dedicated "Music" page, he will be much more seriously lost. Art LaPella (talk) 22:53, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Specific Geographic naming issues
The page Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) has a long list of country-specific issues regarding names. Most of these are too short to warrant their own pages, but should nevertheless be included within WP:MOS in one way or another. I have taken the bull by the horns and added them to the Regional section of this list. I trust that this is in order. Martinvl (talk) 09:12, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Rename to{{WPMOS sidebar}} per WP:MOS ; and to not occupy a location potentially usable in articles about various manuals of style. The current {{style}} should redirect to the cleanup message {{tone}} after this is moved and all tranclusions replaced. -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 11:00, 18 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Pointless. Has a single person ever misused this template thinking it was for something else? Solution in search of a problem. Jenks24 (talk) 12:40, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I think that is looking for a problem that isn't really there. If you can show me one example of this template being confused with {{tone}} I'll change to support. Jenks24 (talk) 14:45, 1 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The very text of the template This article's tone or style may not reflect the encyclopedic tone used on Wikipedia would indicate that this should be the preferred usage for "style". How'd you go about searching for prior transclusions of this template for errors of cleanup template attachment? -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 06:31, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to see why anyone reading that would somehow think the template is called "Template:Style". Not sure how you would go about it, but surely if it was a real problem there would be plenty of examples. Jenks24 (talk) 14:23, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion
Any additional comments:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
WikiProject Computer science
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I worked on making the MoS templates (Template:style + template:manual of style)match each other in terms of what they contained. They should now each contain all of the links that the other contain, and that the respective MoS categories contain.
I did not, however, alphabetize the lists, determine notability of certain WikiProject guidelines in the categories, or add some of the pages from the MoS sports categories to the templates.
Let me know if any changes need to be made or if I was too WP:BOLD!
Shouldn't there be a <noinclude></noinclude> around the deletion notification? Right now the notification appears on pages that transclude this template. Largoplazo (talk) 15:46, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done :)
Do you know how to edit the editnotices on a page? I tried but I don't think it worked. I would be open to that as an alternative to merging the templates
JuxtaposedJacob (talk) 16:43, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have put together a proposed MoS article for the subject of astronomy, located here: MOS:ASTRO. Is there an approval process that needs to be followed to have it be included on the {{Style}} template? I.e. to have it added to the 'By topic area' under 'Science'. I just want to understand the steps. Thank you. Praemonitus (talk) 17:32, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure, but if there is an approval process and yours gets approved, make sure to update Template:Manual of Style as well.
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