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Template talk:Post-war flight of Axis fugitives
How is Arthur Rudolph a fugitive? ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 19:12, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-12-13T19:12:00.000Z","author":"Gadget850","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Gadget850-2009-12-13T19:12:00.000Z-Rudolph","replies":["c-Gadget850-2010-04-06T12:24:00.000Z-Gadget850-2009-12-13T19:12:00.000Z"],"displayName":"Gadget850\u00a0(Ed)"}}-->
- Nor do I understand why Paul Schäfer is listed. He was a Nazi and later a fugitive, but he was not a fugitive because of his actions as a Nazi. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 12:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2010-04-06T12:24:00.000Z","author":"Gadget850","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Gadget850-2010-04-06T12:24:00.000Z-Gadget850-2009-12-13T19:12:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"Gadget850\u00a0(Ed)"}}-->
A lot of the individuals in this template were not Nazis, but their collaborators. A new title, perhaps "Post-war flight of Axis fugitives", would be more appropriate. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 09:48, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-01-26T09:48:00.000Z","author":"PRODUCER","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-PRODUCER-2014-01-26T09:48:00.000Z-Nazis","replies":[]}}-->
This whole template is problematic. We have people from non-Axis countries listed and we have non-fugitive types listed and we have fugitive-types listed even though they are fugitives for reasons other than being in WWII. Basically it is probe to improper WP:Synthesis. (E.g., "X fought in the German army during WWII, X left his homeland, X was wanted for some reason, therefore X is an Axis fugitive.") Unless some discipline is applied to define who are Axis fugitives, this template should be deleted. – S. Rich (talk) 01:44, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-07-15T01:44:00.000Z","author":"Srich32977","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Srich32977-2014-07-15T01:44:00.000Z-Problematic_template","replies":["c-Mtsmallwood-2014-07-15T01:57:00.000Z-Srich32977-2014-07-15T01:44:00.000Z"],"displayName":"S. Rich"}}-->
- Template clearly identifies origin by country. Axis collaborators were obviously not from de jure Axis countries, Herberts Cukors being the classic example. Please be specific as to who is not a fugitive, if that's the issue, then this template may not apply to that person. Same should apply to persons who are fugitives but not for reasons associated with WW2. It's not viable to suggest that a template should be deleted because it might include this or that person who maybe shouldn't be on it. The solution is to edit the template.Mtsmallwood (talk) 01:57, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-07-15T01:57:00.000Z","author":"Mtsmallwood","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Mtsmallwood-2014-07-15T01:57:00.000Z-Srich32977-2014-07-15T01:44:00.000Z","replies":["c-Srich32977-2014-07-15T02:21:00.000Z-Mtsmallwood-2014-07-15T01:57:00.000Z"]}}-->
- I'm not so sure. Tscherim Soobzokov was a collaborator, not a from an Axis power. I don't see where we have "Axis persons", much less "Axis fugitives" as a topic. (So some sort of template re-naming might help.) But the template title is just one problem. SYNTH is the second problem. Soobzokov was a collaborator and Soobzokov went to the US. But was there an arrest warrant out for him? Absent a warrant, we can't include him. Same thing for Cukors article, he was never formally charged. I'm not sure that a template name change can help. – S. Rich (talk) 02:21, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-07-15T02:21:00.000Z","author":"Srich32977","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Srich32977-2014-07-15T02:21:00.000Z-Mtsmallwood-2014-07-15T01:57:00.000Z","replies":["c-Mtsmallwood-2014-07-16T18:07:00.000Z-Srich32977-2014-07-15T02:21:00.000Z"],"displayName":"S. Rich"}}-->
- I don't see de jure citizenship in a formal Axis power as being a bar to being considered an Axis fugitive. Germany recruited people from all over Europe to serve in its armies and otherwise carry out its policies in the various countries that it occupied or invaded. Consider Cukors, who was deeply involved in the Holocaust in Latvia, and fled to South America, where he was (supposedly) murdered by Mossad. That sounds like someone that needs inclusion in this group. If this or that person is not properly included, the solution to that is to edit the template not to delete it.Mtsmallwood (talk) 18:07, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-07-16T18:07:00.000Z","author":"Mtsmallwood","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Mtsmallwood-2014-07-16T18:07:00.000Z-Srich32977-2014-07-15T02:21:00.000Z","replies":["c-Srich32977-2014-07-16T18:59:00.000Z-Mtsmallwood-2014-07-16T18:07:00.000Z"]}}-->
- We have a category to cover the topic. See Category:Nazi fugitives. If this category could be properly populated, it would serve the same purpose. The larger problem I see with the template is in defining it. (Doing so would allow for proper culling (and addition) of names.) So I'll suggest the following definition for the template documentation: "This template is a listing of fugitives from justice who evaded criminal prosecution for crimes related to their support of Axis forces. Also listed are subjects directly related to the fugitives or their fugitive status." With this definition, Rodolfo Freude gets taken out (because his article is completely unreferenced), as does Franco (because his article does not mention assistance for fugitives). – S. Rich (talk) 18:59, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2014-07-16T18:59:00.000Z","author":"Srich32977","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Srich32977-2014-07-16T18:59:00.000Z-Mtsmallwood-2014-07-16T18:07:00.000Z","replies":[],"displayName":"S. Rich"}}-->
Should Operation Osoaviakhim (Soviet Union) be added under "State involvement"? --1.136.105.34 (talk) 01:24, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2018-09-27T01:24:00.000Z","author":"1.136.105.34","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-1.136.105.34-2018-09-27T01:24:00.000Z-Operation_Osoaviakhim","replies":[]}}-->
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