Template talk:Ecumenical councils

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Synod of Jerusalem

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Most Eastern Orthodox regard the council as "pan-Orthodox" and not as an ecumenical council. Should we add this note to the template? (Because the title is "Ecumenical councils", though the Synod of Jerusalem is not considered ecumenical)--K kokkinos (talk) 11:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-05-07T11:54:00.000Z","author":"K kokkinos","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-K_kokkinos-2008-05-07T11:54:00.000Z-Synod_of_Jerusalem","replies":["c-123.18.217.220-2009-10-12T12:12:00.000Z-K_kokkinos-2008-05-07T11:54:00.000Z"]}}-->

I think so! The Quinisext Council and the Synod of Jerusalem. How do you think?--123.18.217.220 (talk) 12:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-12T12:12:00.000Z","author":"123.18.217.220","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-123.18.217.220-2009-10-12T12:12:00.000Z-K_kokkinos-2008-05-07T11:54:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Number of Councils

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Only the Councils of Nicea and Constantinople are recognised as Ecumenical by all Churches with apostolic succussion. Therefore it is objectively incorrect to refer to any councils beyond the First Council of Constantinople as "ecumenical". The Assyrian Church of the East (together with the Ancient Church of the East only recognise these two councils as ecumenical. The Oriental Orthodox Churches only recognise these two plus the Council of Ephesus as ecumenical. Conversely, the Oriental Orthodox do not consider the either the Second Council of Ephesus (449) or the Third Council of Ephesus (475) to be ecumenical; therefore their inclusion in this box is unwarranted.

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A number of issues

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Carlaude has made a number of bold and unilateral edits to this page, many of which stand in contrast to my knowledge of such matters, and which are backed up by no citations. I will break them down into sup-groupings in this section (though not absolutely all of my issues are about his edits:Deusveritasest (talk) 05:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z","author":"Deusveritasest","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-A_number_of_issues","replies":[]}}-->

"West"

Your specification that it is only the Eastern Orthodox within Eastern Christianity who recognize Seven Ecumenical Councils is fine and good. But seeing as how you got rid of my "variously" qualification, we must look at the other group. Without my qualification, the page thus suggests that all of Western Christianity recognizes Seven Ecumenical Councils, and not only is this clearly not true, but it is even contradictory to what you write later on in the page. Either we can say "East and West" while somehow qualifying it, or you have to specify the groups within Western Christianity that claim Seven Ecumenical Councils. Deusveritasest (talk) 05:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z","author":"Deusveritasest","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-\"West\"","replies":["c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z"]}}-->

I am tring to put as much info as we can in a small space-- how about we change it to [[Catholic Church|West]] & [[Eastern Orthodox Church|Eastern Orthodoxy]]. ^{Carlaude:Talk} 11:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z","author":"Carlaude","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

"First Seven"

What is the point of linking to "Seven Ecumenical Councils" and then also listing each of the constituent councils within that group. Shouldn't we stick to one approach or another? Either link to the Seven Ecumenical Councils in general, or only link to the constituent councils. Deusveritasest (talk) 05:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z","author":"Deusveritasest","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-\"First_Seven\"","replies":["c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-1"]}}-->

The purpose of the tempate is to provide links to related articles. First seven Ecumenical Councils is a very well done and related article. ^{Carlaude:Talk} 11:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z","author":"Carlaude","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-1","replies":[]}}-->

Constantinople IV

Why is Constantinople IV not grouped among the "partly recognized" EC's of the EOC when it is also a council that is not universally recognized as an Ecumenical Council by Eastern Orthodox Christians? Deusveritasest (talk) 05:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z","author":"Deusveritasest","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-Constantinople_IV","replies":["c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-2"]}}-->

While this was not from my edits I notice that the EO "Fourth Council of Constantinople of 879-880 is believed to have been the Eighth Ecumenical Council by some Eastern Orthodox" Christians (many most) whereas the Quinisext Council (692) seems to be a council that had some canons recognized as an ecumenical (all) Eastern Orthodox Christians. ^{Carlaude:Talk} 11:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z","author":"Carlaude","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-2","replies":[]}}-->

Synod of Jerusalem

Why was the 1672 Synod of Jerusalem put on this page? I've not once seen a reference to it being considered an Ecumenical Council. Deusveritasest (talk) 05:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z","author":"Deusveritasest","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-Synod_of_Jerusalem_2","replies":["c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-3"]}}-->

Wikipedia always seems short of experts in Eastern Orthodoxy. ^{Carlaude:Talk} 11:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z","author":"Carlaude","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-3","replies":[]}}-->

Old Catholics

Where is the evidence that the Old Catholics recognize the 19 councils before Vatican I as Ecumenical? All of the Old Catholic sources I've seen so far have claimed 7 Ecumenical Councils, not 19. Deusveritasest (talk) 05:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z","author":"Deusveritasest","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-Old_Catholics","replies":["c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-4","c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T16:03:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z"]}}-->

I'll look into this more-- but feel free to post links to where you have looked esp. if they are online.^{Carlaude:Talk} 11:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z","author":"Carlaude","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-4","replies":[]}}-->

It looks like Old Catholics avoid being pro or con on these ECs #8-19. I'll change this. ^{Carlaude:Talk} 16:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T16:03:00.000Z","author":"Carlaude","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T16:03:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z","replies":["c-Str1977-2012-06-06T14:18:00.000Z-Carlaude-2009-10-26T16:03:00.000Z"]}}-->

When they were founded, Old Catholics emphasised that they accept all of Catholicism save Vatican I, which they deemed an innovation. Their position might of course have changed since then, but I don't think that they formally repudiated an Council, even if they do no longer follow it. Str1977 ^(talk) 14:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-06-06T14:18:00.000Z","author":"Str1977","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Str1977-2012-06-06T14:18:00.000Z-Carlaude-2009-10-26T16:03:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Calvinists

What is the source that indicated that Calvinists recognize the Synod of Dort and the Westminster Assembly as Ecumenical Councils? How is this consistent with the later claim that they recognize only four ecumenical councils? Where is the evidence that they recognize these four? Deusveritasest (talk) 05:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z","author":"Deusveritasest","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-Calvinists","replies":["c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-5"]}}-->

Category:Church councils accepted by Calvinism.

I ment to say "Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, & other Protestants recognize the first four of these councils" without the only. I'll change this.^{Carlaude:Talk} 11:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z","author":"Carlaude","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-5","replies":["c-Str1977-2012-06-06T14:18:00.000Z-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z"]}}-->

There's no evidence that Calvinists, if they even accept the concept of Ecumenical Councils at all, recognize these two as such. Str1977 ^(talk) 14:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2012-06-06T14:18:00.000Z","author":"Str1977","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Str1977-2012-06-06T14:18:00.000Z-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Anglicans

Where is the evidence that Anglicans universally recognize four and only four Ecumenical Councils? Deusveritasest (talk) 05:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z","author":"Deusveritasest","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-Anglicans","replies":["c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-6"]}}-->

Category:Church councils accepted by Anglicanism. Removing "only" may help but I'll look into this more.^{Carlaude:Talk} 11:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z","author":"Carlaude","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z-Deusveritasest-2009-10-26T05:26:00.000Z-6","replies":["c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:52:00.000Z-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z"]}}-->

From Anglican doctrine -- "The first four ecumenical councils of Nicea, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon "have a special place in Anglican theology, secondary to the Scriptures themselves." -- Frederick P. Shriver, "Councils, Conferences, and Synods", in Anglicanism, ed. by S. Sykes and J. Booty, 1988-99 (London: SPCK, 1988), p. 189. This authority is usually considered to pertain to questions of the nature of Christ (the hypostasis of divine and human) and the relationships between the Persons of the Holy Trinity, summarised chiefly in the creeds which emerged from those councils." ^{Carlaude:Talk} 11:52, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2009-10-26T11:52:00.000Z","author":"Carlaude","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:52:00.000Z-Carlaude-2009-10-26T11:22:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

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Council of Pisa

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Hi, why is council of Pisa missing?
It was removed with this edit: (cur | prev) 02:22, 13 July 2007‎ 201.17.60.249 (talk)‎ . . (1,375 bytes) (-64)‎ . . (undo) by anonymous editor without explanation.
I am aware it is controversial, and it might be correct to omit it. However it did indeed happen and it had impact on history. Can there be a section about non-recognized councils, or something like that?
I am not knowledgable about the subject matter so I will not edit the template or push it in any direction. However I consider it strange enough to ask.
Best regards
--Jan.Smolik (talk) 12:21, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-09-22T12:21:00.000Z","author":"Jan.Smolik","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Jan.Smolik-2017-09-22T12:21:00.000Z-Council_of_Pisa","replies":[]}}-->

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Pan-Orthodox Council (2016)

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The template contains already Councils that are not considered Ecumenical, like the Synod of Constantinople, the Synod of Jerusalem and the Synod of Jassy, for example. According to this logic, I added the Holy and Great Council of 2016, a synod of major importance for the Orthodox Church, that has been prepared for over a century. Templates in other languages (bg, el, ru, it) contain it as well. User:Vanjagenije converted this addition, saying it is not ecumenical. I believe that we must either delete all those that are not considered ecumenical, like the ones that I mention above, or add the Pan-Orthodox Council as well. I think the second option is better, as it gives a better overview. I would also change the title to "Ecumenical and other major councils", because even now only the first line refers to Ecumenical ones--Kostisl (talk) 07:09, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2020-06-18T07:09:00.000Z","author":"Kostisl","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Kostisl-2020-06-18T07:09:00.000Z-Pan-Orthodox_Council_(2016)","replies":[]}}-->