Template talk:Ashikaga clan family tree

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Reference source

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The format of this version of the family tree here was modified from a "pedigree" chart in Ackroyd's translation of Tokushi Yoron (p.298); however, Ackroyd only included 14 shoguns -- not 15. This causes me to recognize a plausible problem having to do with the inclusion of Ashikaga Yoshiteru's brother, Ashikaga Yoshiaki. Which is the better choice?

This seemed like the reasonable place to raise this modest question about the template? --Tenmei (talk) 13:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2008-04-02T13:27:00.000Z","author":"Tenmei","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tenmei-2008-04-02T13:27:00.000Z-Reference_source","replies":["c-Tenmei-2011-06-27T14:30:00.000Z-Tenmei-2008-04-02T13:27:00.000Z"]}}-->

Explaining changes
星光下的人 -- Your format changes are significant. Your edit introduces several innovative differences in this graphic overview of the familial and dynastic relationships. Our ability to interpret and evaluate your work here would be helped by citing its source.

Please explain the specific reasons for the changes you have made. For example, please clarify how the dotted-lines should be construed in this revised family tree.

See also User talk:星光下的人#Explaining changes. --Tenmei (talk) 14:30, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-27T14:30:00.000Z","author":"Tenmei","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Tenmei-2011-06-27T14:30:00.000Z-Tenmei-2008-04-02T13:27:00.000Z","replies":["c-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-27T22:28:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-27T14:30:00.000Z"]}}-->

dotted-lines means 養子（ようし），same use to the revision before my edit.——星光下的人 (talk) 22:28, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-27T22:28:00.000Z","author":"\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-27T22:28:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-27T14:30:00.000Z","replies":["c-Tenmei-2011-06-28T01:03:00.000Z-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-27T22:28:00.000Z"]}}-->
You misunderstand my question about the dotted lines. Let's agree to set it aside for the moment. We can return to it after a preliminary issue is resolved.

Please identify the reliable source which is the basis for your edits? --Tenmei (talk) 01:03, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-28T01:03:00.000Z","author":"Tenmei","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Tenmei-2011-06-28T01:03:00.000Z-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-27T22:28:00.000Z","replies":["c-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-28T01:27:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-28T01:03:00.000Z"]}}-->

I have none reliable source,my edit based on Japanese wiki,if wrong,just move it.--星光下的人 (talk) 01:27, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-28T01:27:00.000Z","author":"\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-28T01:27:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-28T01:03:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

星光下的人 -- Perhaps you misunderstand my question. I was not asking about your intent. Instead, shouldn't we work together to mitigate the ways in which a reader is likely to struggle with this graphic?

For example, Shogun Yoshimasa was succeeded by Shogun Yoshihisa (Yoshimasa's natural son), then by Shogun Yoshitane (Yoshimasa's first adopted son), and then by Shogun Yoshizumi (Yoshimasa's second adopted son). The Ashikaga relationships are not easy or obvious. What level of detail is better or best? --Tenmei (talk) 04:34, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-28T04:34:00.000Z","author":"Tenmei","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tenmei-2011-06-28T04:34:00.000Z-Reference_source","replies":["c-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-28T07:06:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-28T04:34:00.000Z"]}}-->

Sorry, I don't know what your meaning......Say another way,plz?--星光下的人 (talk) 07:06, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-28T07:06:00.000Z","author":"\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-28T07:06:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-28T04:34:00.000Z","replies":["c-Tenmei-2011-06-29T14:51:00.000Z-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-28T07:06:00.000Z"]}}-->
1. The edits you made are justifiable, verifiable, correct ... but at the same time, it cannot be said that your format is best because it is not easily "readable". In other words, the data which is visually presented is not easily scanned left-to-right, top-to-bottom. Let's work together to tweak your work in a series of small changes so that you can recognize ways to improve the next family tree you create.

2. For example, Yoshinori and his progeny are moved left slightly in order to clarify the fraternal relationship with Yoshimochi. Similarly, Yoshimi was moved up in order to clarify the fraternal relationship with Yoshikatsu, Masatomo and Yoshimasa. Do you see how moving Yoshiteru right clarifies his relationship with his brother Yoshiaki?

3. Also, please notice how the sequence of shogunal succession is made easier to grasp quickly. The superscript numbers also suggest other places in the family tree which need to be made more "readable". Do you follow my reasoning here? --Tenmei (talk) 14:51, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-29T14:51:00.000Z","author":"Tenmei","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Tenmei-2011-06-29T14:51:00.000Z-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-28T07:06:00.000Z","replies":["c-Tenmei-2011-06-29T15:29:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-29T14:51:00.000Z"]}}-->

4. Can you see how a small change here improved the "readability" of transitions among 3rd→ 4th→ 5th→ 6th shoguns? If so, can you also see that it would be an improvement for Masatomo to be re-positioned to the right or left of Yoshimi because it will make it easier to scan the transitions among the 9th→ 10th→ 11th shoguns? --Tenmei (talk) 15:29, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-29T15:29:00.000Z","author":"Tenmei","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Tenmei-2011-06-29T15:29:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-29T14:51:00.000Z","replies":["c-Tenmei-2011-06-29T23:51:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-29T15:29:00.000Z"]}}-->
5. The changes I made are very modest. They are explained above. Your revert was an unwelcome surprise. In the context these small changes create, please explain your thinking; and please respond to what is written above. --Tenmei (talk) 23:51, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-29T23:51:00.000Z","author":"Tenmei","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Tenmei-2011-06-29T23:51:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-29T15:29:00.000Z","replies":["c-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-30T00:13:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-29T23:51:00.000Z"]}}-->
Except the order ,your change is unnecessary,the relationship become chaos and false.--星光下的人 (talk) 00:13, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-30T00:13:00.000Z","author":"\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-30T00:13:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-29T23:51:00.000Z","replies":["c-Tenmei-2011-06-30T04:48:00.000Z-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-30T00:13:00.000Z"]}}-->
Your words are judgmental, but vague. What is chaotic? What is false? Please, can you be more specific? For example, are you referring to something to do with the first six shoguns? --Tenmei (talk) 04:48, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-30T04:48:00.000Z","author":"Tenmei","type":"comment","level":11,"id":"c-Tenmei-2011-06-30T04:48:00.000Z-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-30T00:13:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

No, let's review -- you asked me here to explain in different words. I did as you asked here and here, but you do not acknowledge my cooperation. Not good. In an effort to improve our ability to work together, you can see that I have numbered the paragraphs above. Perhaps this may make it easier for us to focus on specifics. If you are not specific, I can't respond in a constructive way. --Tenmei (talk) 05:11, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-30T05:11:00.000Z","author":"Tenmei","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tenmei-2011-06-30T05:11:00.000Z-Reference_source","replies":["c-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-30T06:36:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-30T05:11:00.000Z"]}}-->

Very strange,can't you see the different from your version and mine?In your version,the position of Yoshikatsu and Masatomo is lopsided.Yoshimi is Yoshimasa 's adoption son,and you moved the broken line.Yoshitane and Yoshiki are one people,but they are two tenure of shogun.Is that enough?--星光下的人 (talk) 06:36, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-30T06:36:00.000Z","author":"\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-30T06:36:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-30T05:11:00.000Z","replies":["c-Tenmei-2011-06-30T14:11:00.000Z-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-30T06:36:00.000Z"]}}-->
Yes, thank you. These are three specific issues. Your critical dissatisfaction is precise; and I take your points in order:
  • (a) Yes, lopsided -- but I believe it would be unhelpful to explain my thinking until after you have acknowledged and commented on paragraphs 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 above.
  • (b) No, Yoshimi is the brother, not the adoptive son of Yoshimasa; and this is verified here Yoshimasa adopted his nephew (Yoshimi's son) Yoshitane; and this is verified here. Can you identify a source which supports your opinion that "Yoshimi is Yoshimasa 's adoption son"?
  • (c) Yes, the chronology of leaders in Japan is complicated and inconsistent. I can see how you might think that Yoshitane should be counted twice, but can you cite a source which verifies your opinion? The edit to which you object is verifiable at here and by other reliable sources as well.
Are there other specific questions you have? --Tenmei (talk) 14:11, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-30T14:11:00.000Z","author":"Tenmei","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Tenmei-2011-06-30T14:11:00.000Z-\u661f\u5149\u4e0b\u7684\u4eba-2011-06-30T06:36:00.000Z","replies":["c-Tenmei-2011-06-30T16:16:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-30T14:11:00.000Z"]}}-->
Please notice that I acknowledge and respond to your complaint about "lopsided" boxes. Despite "lopsided," you do agree that the fraternal relations are clear, yes? At a glance, you can see that these are sets of brothers, yes?
Please compare similar (but not exactly the same) family tree graphs here and here. --Tenmei (talk) 16:16, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-30T16:16:00.000Z","author":"Tenmei","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Tenmei-2011-06-30T16:16:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-30T14:11:00.000Z","replies":["c-Tenmei-2011-06-30T17:10:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-30T16:16:00.000Z"]}}-->
Please note that Yoshitsuna is now shown instead of Yoshifuyu. This is explained in part by Ackroyd at p. 385 n104; excerpt,
"Some apparent contradictions exist in various versions of the pedigree owing to adoptions and name-changes. Yoshitsuna (sometimes also read Yoshikore) changed his name and was adopted by Yoshitane. Some pedegrees show Yoshitsuna as Yoshizumi's son, and Yoshifuyu as Yoshizumi's son."
Can you provide any citation support for restoring or re-adding Yoshifuyu in our template?
In any case, there is no doubt that Yoshihide is the grandson of Yoshizumi, yes? --Tenmei (talk) 17:10, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-30T17:10:00.000Z","author":"Tenmei","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Tenmei-2011-06-30T17:10:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-30T16:16:00.000Z","replies":["c-Tenmei-2011-06-30T18:01:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-30T17:10:00.000Z"]}}-->
Also, compare the tree format here → Berry, Mary Elizabeth. (1997). The Culture of Civil War in Kyoto, p. 44., p. 44, at Google Books --Tenmei (talk) 18:01, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2011-06-30T18:01:00.000Z","author":"Tenmei","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Tenmei-2011-06-30T18:01:00.000Z-Tenmei-2011-06-30T17:10:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->