Talk:Tithe

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Text or other creative content from this version of Tithe was copied or moved into Second tithe with this edit on June/10/13. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

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There's another reference to Old Testament tithing that would be good to cite:

Gen. 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,

Gen. 28:21 So that I come again to my father’s house in peace--then shall the LORD be my God,

Gen. 28:22 And this rock, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God’s house; and of all that you shall give me, I will surely give the tenth to you.

p.

I should point out, tithes were not taxes but rather they were tax-like. In certain crucial respects they do not qualify as taxes - mainly, from being too arms length from governments. Even so, they still affected payers the same way, so correcting this technical point needs to respect the spirit as well as the letter. I'll leave it a while. PML.

---

At least here in Finland Evangelical-lutheran church collects (governmental tax office does this) one percent (not ten percent) from income of members of the church. Here is also other christian churches... So it would be interesting to know about tithes in other European countries, is it really collected somewhere?

I'm going to move the paragraph on France down with the other paragraphs about official state collection of "tithes." I think we should also structure these entries as subentries to a section on government collection of religious offerings. billlund 12:56, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

Intro: "There are still European countries today that allow some churches to assess a mandatory tithe which is enforced by law.". Mandatory? Which countries? By the discriptions of individual countries, that's not the idea I get.

Members of the LDS Church (or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) are required to pay tithing. Could somebody please put some reference to this on the page on tithes?

Members of the LDS Church are not "required" to pay a tithing, but it is a commandment from God and an expectation of the church. Paying a tithe is also a requirement to participate in the LDS temple, specifically, to receive a temple recommend so that the member can participate in the ordinances of the temple. (There are copious Wikipedia entries on all of this.)

Personally, I don't think that an entry regarding this for the LDS Church is appropriate in this article since no other denomination is specifically mentioned. I also think that bringing in specific practices of denominations would make the article contentious and unwieldy. Let's not do that. billlund 12:52, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

This article is currently quite POV in certain sections and reads like a college essay on tithing instead of an unbiased encyclopedia article. I don't have time to elaborate further or point out specific instances right now, but a brief readthrough of the article should be enough to convince nearly anyone that work needs to be done here. - Jersyko talk 03:54, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

OK, I went through the article and cut out everything that smelled of POV or original research. I'm certain that this article could be expanded significantly, and I might have cut some information that could be reworded and re-inserted as well as failed to cut some info that shouldn't be in the article. I, however, learned more about tithing from reading this article than I've ever known, so I'm certainly not the person to do any more work on it. - Jersyko talk 03:38, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

This article is a mess. It is totally dominated by paragraph after paragraph of quoted text from primary sources that are given no context or explanation. It's left to the reader to wade through it all to find any relevance or explanation for it. Many quotes doesn't even mention Tithes or tithing, and we can only assume that whatever editor contributed it is engaged in writing an essay of original research on the subject.

Can anyone explain what is going on here? Otherwise I'm minded to radically just chop it all out, so we can find an article that explains tithes beneath it all. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:27, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

Yes, it's all Jirda5. You could just revert, but some of it could perhaps go into notes. Also, at 130k raw bytes, the article is just WP:TOOLONG. Johnbod (talk) 17:32, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

Indeed, some of the quoted text could be justifiably mentioned in a historical context, but quoting them in their entirety, without explanation or secondary source is just ridiculous. What is the reader supposed to make of them all? Who are all these people? What are these texts? What do they tell us about tithes? The reader is left completely in the dark on the subject. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:38, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

If the person who added the long excerpts cannot explain what they mean--then it's unlikely that 1% of our users can do that. cut them out. Rjensen (talk) 17:43, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

Rjensen: write about citations from historical monuments that exhibit museums that they are "junk". This is not appropriate at all !!!Jirda5 (talk) 18:52, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

I could completely redo the whole "Ancient World" part. Only a fifth of the quotes would remain and it would make sense. I do not speak English. Someone would have to look at it at the end (just the titles) and maybe fix something. I don't think it would take more than half an hour. I know it's confusing now. Will you give me time to do this? Question for Escape_Orbit Jirda5 (talk) 20:21, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

Completely agree with your original point, and happy to help check the English if you are willing to put the time in to tidy this article up! Kitb (talk) 10:00, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

thank you for your willingness, I appreciate it Jirda5 (talk) 15:24, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

The problem is that they are all quotes from primary sources. Primary sources are suitable for research, but are problematic in an encyclopaedic because there is no context, explanation or analysis to them. And adding any context or explanation would be original research, something that is not permitted on Wikipedia. If we were to sparingly use any quotes, they would have to be within context provided by secondary sources. So your time would be much better spent finding reliable secondary sources that mention these instances of tithing, rather than using this article as a dumping ground for massive chunks of quoted text. The article as it stands is basically ruined, because the reader has to scroll down through screed of quotes to find any information. I am going to revert it all. I suggest you put together what you wish to add in your own personal sandbox and then link to it here first for discussion, before radically changing the article again. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 10:54, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

I've taken the liberty of moving the text over to your sandbox, I hope that's ok. Feel free to perfect the section there and I'm happy to give it a look. Once it looks suitable for inclusion in the article it can be copied across. But please take into consideration what is said above. As it stands just now, it is not a Wikipedia article, it is a large collection of quotes. Thanks. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:08, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

I get it, I expected it. Just a note. Don't you have the impression that Albrektson's statement (and Ancient Near Eastern literature provides scant evidence for the practice of tithing and the collection of tithes) is untrue? Jirda5 (talk) 15:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

I'm afraid my impression, and that of every other Wikipedia editor, doesn't matter. We are not recognised authorities on Tithing. But if you do have a source from another expert on the matter that says differently, please do add it. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 16:29, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

OK. "In Greece the situation is different. Numerous references to tithes of the annual harvest and to tithes of spoil taken in battle are known. Delphi, Delos, and Athens are mentioned as recipients of tithe offerings made to the gods. " (https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/tithes

Albrektson : "scant evidence" / https://www.encyclopedia.com-  : "Numerous references"

It's not about impressions.

I'm also not an expert, but I see the betrayal  :( Jirda5 (talk) 17:36, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

encyclopedia.com is a tertiary source, which not as good as a secondary, but better than none. The question is, does Greece count as "Near East"? If so, you could add a mention of the greek tithing to the section (with source, of course). Otherwise it might go better in a different section. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:52, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hello 1990'sguy (talk · contribs). I noticed that you have removed criticism of the financial abuses by religious leaders. However, it has been there for many years. This section being neutral and very well referenced, this action looks like to Wikipedia:Vandalism. Also, as Wikipedia:Criticism#Philosophy,_religion,_or_politics explains, “For topics about a particular point of view – such as philosophies (Idealism, Naturalism, Existentialism), political outlooks (Capitalism, Marxism), or religion (Islam, Christianity, Atheism) – it will usually be appropriate to have a "Criticism" section”. See also Christianity#Criticism. Finally, it is an academic, encyclopedic and social responsibility, to denounce financial abuses by religious leaders in order to help people to identify them and specially to avoid new victims. This is what Jesus Christ has done many times in his ministry, including denouncing the love of money (Mammon) and the hypocrisy of religious leaders who devour the house of widows (Luke 20:47). Thanks for your help. My best wishes of peace and love (Wikipedia:WikiLove).--Nathan B2 (talk) 18:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

The article is heavily oriented towards Judeo-Christian history and is not complete as it completely ignores the practice of tithing in Greco-Roman antiquity. But tithing is not an invention of Judeo-Christian religions. He had been here thousands of years before them. See article: https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Des%C3%A1tek — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jirda5 (talk • contribs) 15:19, 10 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Irenaeus and other ante-nicene church writers (known as church fathers) all indicate no tithe received in the first 300 years of the history of the Church. This important determining point is absolutely missing from the entire article which is severely biased toward the promotion of mandatory tithing. 2603:6010:9AF0:8000:10E9:B785:6996:93D6 (talk) 18:07, 24 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

» For as many as are of works of the Law are under a Curse! // All who rely on works of the Law are under a Curse!

For it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the Law,
(...)
The Law, however, is not based on Faith. «

(Galatians 3)

» ... any other gospel ... « (Galatians 1:8 +/-)

What has seemed good to the Holy Spirit (!) and to the Apostles and Elders,
with the whole Church?

→ Acts 15: 5-11+19-20 + 28-29 ! & Acts 21:25
(and also: Galatians 2:19 etc. → Galatians 5:4! Hebrews! Romans! … etc. etc.)

» But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said,

"It is necessary (...) to order them to keep the Law of Moses."

The Apostles and the Elders were gathered together to consider this matter.
(...)
Peter stood up and said to them,
"(...) Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test
by placing a Yoke on the neck of the disciples
that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? (...)"
(...)
James replied, "Brothers, listen to me.
(...)
Therefore my judgment is
that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,
but should write to them

to abstain
from the things polluted by idols,
and from sexual immorality,
and from what has been strangled, and from blood. (...)"
(...)
Then it seemed good to the Apostles and the Elders,
with the whole Church,
to (...) sent (...) the following letter:

"(...) Since we have heard
that some persons have gone out from us
and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds,
although we gave them no instructions,
(...)
For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit (!)
and to us (!)

to lay on you NO greater burden than these requirements:

that you abstain
from what has been sacrificed to idols,
and from blood, and from what has been strangled,
and from sexual immorality.
If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell." «

(in Acts 15)

» For through the Law I died to the Law,
so that I might live to God.
(...)
I do not Nullify the Grace of God (!) «

(Galatians 2)

» (...) to redeem those who were under the Law,
so that we might receive adoption to Sonship / as sons.
(...)
I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.
(...)
Tell me, you who desire to be under the Law,
do you not listen to the Law? «

(Galatians 4)

» For Freedom Christ has set us free;
stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a Yoke of slavery.
(...)
You ARE SEVERED from Christ (!),
you who would be justified by the Law;
you HAVE Fallen Away from Grace.
(...)
I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view,

and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty,
WHOEVER he is. «

(Galatians 5) 2A02:8070:8A83:C560:CC6:9852:3223:EA68 (talk) 21:12, 14 September 2025 (UTC)Reply