Talk:Timmarusu
he was a very intelligent prime minister and advised the king, sri krishna deva raya on all the issues. He was responsible for the coronation of Krishna Deva Ra
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 | On 2 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Timmarasa. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
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he was a very intelligent prime minister and advised the king, sri krishna deva raya on all the issues. He was responsible for the coronation of Krishna Deva Raya as the king of Vijayanagara kingdom. Though krishna deva raya had a very strong army, he wouldn't have tasted such great successes if not for the wit and diplomacy of Timmarusu. Once, the Bahamani sultan sent a person who impersonated Timmarusu and killed the prince, son of Krishna Deva Raya. Krishna Deva Raya, thinking that Timmarusu had committed the crime, ordered him to be blinded. After knowing the mistake he had done, Krishna Deva Raya repented a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.47.124.129 (talk) 15:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Inscriptions call him Timmarasa not Timmarasu
An incomplete and dated Saka 1439, Iśvara, Mārgasira, ba. 3, corresponding to A.D. 1517 December 1 Tuesday (not verifiable), in the reign of Krishṇaraya-Mahā- rāya, king of Karṇāṭaka. It mentions his queen Tirumalāmbikā and records that Rayasada Kondamarasayya, son of Mantri Timmarasa and grandson of Sripatyacharya, of Bharadvaja-gōtra, Aśvalāyna-sūtra and Ṛik-śākhā, made some gift for the service of the goddess Chaudēśvari in Chōlasamudra in order that the king may be blessed with children. Kondamarasayya is stated to have been an expert in reading various scripts. His grandfather is described as a very learned man and observer of the four religious orders, Brahmacharya, Grihastha, Vanaprastha and Yati, as the ornament of the Udayagiri-Kannadiga-kula and as the chief of Podaṭūru in the Dravida-dēśa. CatTheMeow (talk) 07:58, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
- Most English language sources give his name as Timmarusu or Timmarasu. That is the version we adopt in the English Wikipedia. (WP:CRITERIA). Prove that Timmarasa is more used than Tammarasu and Timmarusu by English language academic sources. Reo kwon (talk) 14:38, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- Inscriptional evidence to be depicted, propagandized history can fool journal writers too CatTheMeow (talk) 07:48, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- You are assuming that all historians and researchers will fall prey to popular culture depictions. That is unfounded. Anyhow, the lead of the article mentions all the different variants of the spelling.
- There has been English-language research on Vijayanagara Empire going back over a century. Provide evidence that shows Timmarasa has been used as a standard spelling. Reo kwon (talk) 07:57, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- As I already said that this man wants his language supremacy to be spread over everywhere no matter even if his claims are denied against official sources @C.Fred CatTheMeow (talk) 07:53, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Inscriptional evidence to be depicted, propagandized history can fool journal writers too CatTheMeow (talk) 07:48, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Adding C.Fred. CatTheMeow does not provide any evidence for the page change to take place (i.e. the criteria of most commonly used spelling in English language sources) and instead has engaged in multiple disruptive edits. Reo kwon (talk) 10:02, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
- @C.Fred I have provided the source, taken both from inscriptions and English books, both calls him as "Timmarasa", the user @Reo kwon himself didn't give any reason to move the page and source and he's blaming me despite plenty of sources provided to him CatTheMeow (talk) 10:18, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
- @C.Fred One of the important book written about the Vijaynagara empire history by Robert Sewell calls him as "Timmarasa" which was the same name mentioned in inscriptions and foreign accounts
- Here is the source of it :
- (1900) https://archive.org/details/forgotten_empire_vijayanagar_-_robert_sewell pg no. 250, 309
- And check my discussion in this talk page
- The user @Reo kwon don't provide any source just involved in edit wars despite providing many sources to him, he's just beloved to his langauge rather than providing sources he plays his emotions related to his language and nothig more than that, and play victim card CatTheMeow (talk) 10:38, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
- @CatTheMeow The source you provided is 100 years old. Transliterations have changed in that time. Do you have a more modern source for the spelling? —C.Fred (talk) 18:25, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- @C.Fred Yes I do have another source, this book 'Vijayanagara Inscriptions Vol 4' of 1985 calls the Minister as 'Timmarasa', this book is based on epigraphic evidence like inscriptions found
- https://books.google.co.in/books?id=GnNAP7M7q6UC&q=Udayagiri+kannadiga+kula+tilaka&dq=Udayagiri+kannadiga+kula+tilaka&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjtiv_attaBAxV_fGwGHaGJC6oQ6AF6BAgNEAM#Timmarasa CatTheMeow (talk) 03:35, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- @C.Fred I request you to move the page from 'Timmarasu' to 'Timmarasa', since I don't want to include in edit wars and violate the rulers, I have provided plenty of sources regarding the original name, because we cannot consider movie titles to be Wiki title for the page, 'Timmarasu' should be in a Telugu translated page not in English page, 'Timmarasa' as per inscriptions and epigraphical evidence found is the real and common name of this minister CatTheMeow (talk) 03:44, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Reo kwon I took another look at the sources, and I'm not seeing anything, outside of a film, to support the "Timmarasu" spelling. If you could point some out, that would be greatly appreciated. —C.Fred (talk) 10:57, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- Please check this. Timmarusu rather than Timmarasu spelling is used in many academic sources. Barbara Stoler Miller used it. Galit Hasan-Rokem and David Dean Shulman also used it. These are some of the noted scholars. Many others also use it more frequently. I did a similar search for Timmarasa and there are fewer sources that use this spelling compared to Timmarusu.
- Also adding BarrelProof. Reo kwon (talk) 06:36, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Reo kwon I took another look at the sources, and I'm not seeing anything, outside of a film, to support the "Timmarasu" spelling. If you could point some out, that would be greatly appreciated. —C.Fred (talk) 10:57, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- @CatTheMeow The source you provided is 100 years old. Transliterations have changed in that time. Do you have a more modern source for the spelling? —C.Fred (talk) 18:25, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- @C.Fred I have provided the source, taken both from inscriptions and English books, both calls him as "Timmarasa", the user @Reo kwon himself didn't give any reason to move the page and source and he's blaming me despite plenty of sources provided to him CatTheMeow (talk) 10:18, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Requested move 2 October 2023
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: no consensus. The discussions here and at Talk:Timmarasu#Inscriptions call him Timmarasa not Timmarasu are inconclusive to determine which of the proposed variation is the common name. Therefore, per WP:NOCON, the article reverts back to the last stable title, which is before the move warring happens: Timmarusu. A request to administrators has been placed to effect the closure, given the move protection of the article. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 02:12, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
Timmarasu → Timmarasa – Original texts of the person calls him as 'Timmarasa' not 'Timmarasu' as discussed in tha talk page with source provided to it CatTheMeow (talk) 03:50, 2 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 01:53, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: Wikipedia tries to use the WP:COMMONNAME that is most prevalent in current English-language reliable sources, not "original texts". I see no clear preference in an Ngram comparison, and very few mentions of either spelling in Google Scholar (roughly an equal number). — BarrelProof (talk) 20:02, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- Revert to Timmarusu or leave it at Timmarasu, per WP:TITLECHANGES, after getting an impression of selective use of sourcing. On Wikipedia, "original texts" is not a persuasive argument. The title "Timmarusu" was stable from 2006 until 2023 when a move war began between CatTheMeow and Reo kwon. Reo kwon has identified sources that use the original title "Timmarusu", and suggested there may be some sort of agenda involved in the repeated moves by CatTheMeow. Is there some kind of Telugu-vs.-Kannada difference between the way this would be spelled or pronounced? In any case, insufficient justification has been provided for a title change, so there is no good reason to change the title to "Timmarasa". An Ngram of the three names seems to show that "Timmarasa" is not currently dominant. The difference seems minor, but "Timmarasu" seems slightly more popular than the others in Google Scholar and the Ngram. — BarrelProof (talk) 16:37, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, it seems to be on the issue of language. Timmarasa seems to be the standard pronunciation in Kannada and CatTheMeow prefers it as such. I would be fine with it too if it was the standard spelling used in English-language sources. But that's clearly not the case as per the evidence from Ngram and other scholarly sources. Reo kwon (talk) 05:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
POV pushing in ethnicity
@C.Fred Please check this and similar edits of CatTheMeow. In the Early life section, he removed the information on the subject's ethnicity cited from the noted historian, Burton Stein in a high-quality academic source, The New Cambridge History of India. In my edits, I have mentioned both the differing versions of the subject's ethnicity. These edits by CatTheMeow are clear POV pushing to remove sources mentioning the subject as Telugu and only project him as a Kannada person which itself is based on an inscription and not any published secondary or tertiary source. Reo kwon (talk) 06:53, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
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