Talk:Raphael

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Giovanni Santi (Raphael's father) has an English language Wikipedia page (Giovanni Santi) so the opportunity shouldn't be missed to include it here with a link: "His father was court painter to the ruler of the small but highly cultured city of Urbino." (second para) Sadie694 (talk) 16:27, 4 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

He was linked in the detailed section below, but I have added another there(which some officious MOS-follower will probably remove eventually). Of the 2 places, the 2nd is the most appropriate. Johnbod (talk) 17:39, 4 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

Got it, thanks! Sadie694 (talk) 10:20, 12 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

"He trained in the workshop of Pietro Perugino" (para 2) - we don't know this, and it is indeed an ongoing debate in Raphael/Perugino scholarship. Sadie694 (talk) 16:29, 4 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

"probably" added. Johnbod (talk) 17:45, 4 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks! Sadie694 (talk) 10:21, 12 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

"After his early years in Rome, much of his work was executed by his workshop from his drawings, with considerable loss of quality." Suggest removal of 'with considerable loss of quality'. Our perception of 'quality' is different from the Renaissance perception (a patron may have only required a particular iconography/composition, and be very content with a more roughly painted workshop version, for example). In addition, this implies that all the workshop pictures are crude, when that simply isn't the case. Sadie694 (talk) 16:34, 4 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

This still seems to be the perception of contemporary scholarship, not to mention popular opinion. Johnbod (talk) 17:40, 4 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

Could a solution be to add 'consistent' as in, 'considerable loss of consistent quality'? I'm just thinking of advances in workshop studies and what we know about the inheritance of Raphael's workshop by very talented artists working in the capacity of his assistants/associates. I can see why you've said to keep the idea that the work is seen to suffered in general, but at the moment to me the current phrasing still perpetuates the myth of workshop = bad, master = genius. Sadie694 (talk) 10:25, 12 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps. Don't you think the evaluation of the Raphael Rooms played a part in the creation of the "myth", which is very often the case, at least as workshop = less good, master = genius? Johnbod (talk) 00:55, 13 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

"very much in the style of Perugino". I'd suggest removing this reference, only because including it means it is wrongly omitted from the 'The Resurrection of Christ, 1499–1502 (São Paulo Museum of Art)' and 'The Wedding of the Virgin, Raphael's most sophisticated altarpiece of this period (Pinacoteca di Brera)', which are both based to a high degree on earlier works by Perugino. Sadie694 (talk) 16:41, 4 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

So we should say it 3 times, or not at all? I don't see that, and the text also covers the issue. Johnbod (talk) 17:43, 4 February 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, I wonder if it is cleaner to just not say it at all - does it ask more questions than it answers?! Sadie694 (talk) 10:18, 12 February 2025 (UTC)Reply