Talk:Pub

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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

	Pub is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones Date Process Result May 14, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted

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At least part of "Saloon or lounge" section seems to be copied from History of Pubs/Bars in England. Kendall-K1 (talk) 01:32, 15 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

I put that section into the article in January 2006 - [1], using material I had gathered for an article I had published on RateBeer in April 2004 - [2]. The above linked article is a "Term Paper, AP European History Class" written in "July 2008" which appears to have copied either the RateBeer article or our Wikipedia article. SilkTork (talk) 20:59, 1 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

The second sentence here says, "It had unfurnished floorboards,". Should that be "unfinished" floorboards, or is this some British term for floorboards without furniture? Which I doubt. Venqax (talk) 21:52, 16 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

No reason to credit either without a source to check, but probably intended as written. More sourcing needed.SovalValtos (talk) 01:22, 17 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

I don't know how you would reference something like that. Seems like an obvious auto-correct-type typo. Venqax (talk) 00:59, 22 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

"Unvarnished" would make sense. (Some refurbished English pubs have had their floors restored that way.) Bazza (talk) 09:51, 22 December 2018 (UTC

Yes, unvarnished would make sense, too. Unfurnished, however, does not, no matter how you look at it. Venqax (talk) 17:21, 5 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

Well, to me, unfurnished makes sense in that it means untreated (in any way besides the roughest shaping) timber. No shaping, sanding, finishing of any kind. It may not be current usage, but that's my belief as I haven't even a smidgeon of a source. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 17:46, 5 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

The text was added by an IP [3] where much was changed including removing citation requests without adding adequate citation. Some of the content seems to be editorial opinion or WP:OR and if no one can source it, it should be removed soon.SovalValtos (talk) 17:50, 5 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

So shaping, sanding, and finishing is what you call furniture? Venqax (talk) 17:08, 31 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

This article is a bit of a mishmash of UK pub culture, and pubs in other countries. Would it work better as a split? Crookesmoor (talk) 15:58, 8 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

If you mean split into separate articles, I think that would be unnecessary. Obscurasky (talk) 23:44, 8 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

It does seem to be mainly UK pubs, though. Is that an issue? Jackalopeicus (talk) 08:27, 15 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

Yes it is, and it would help if people with knowledge of the concept of public drinking houses in other countries and cultures could expand it. I've added a note to the top to this effect. Bazza (talk) 10:09, 15 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

Given that it's primarily the UK, can't we just rename this as UK pubs and then create a new worldwide one? Otherwise this would get very long if we have to add information from all other countries? Jackalopeicus (talk) 11:45, 15 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

I suggest leaving the article here and see if more is added. When (if) it gets too unwieldy, then that is the time to split it. Meantime, it could do with a bit of rearranging. Bazza (talk) 15:13, 15 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

That works. I guess if we don't have any information about pubs globally it makes no sense to create one. If (when!) we do, we can do it then. I'll see if I can make some time this weekend to get that done. Jackalopeicus (talk) 19:25, 16 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

this article is misleading and puts all pub culture under british pub culture, this should be separate or named pubs of Britain, there is no mention of the oldest tavern/pub in the world being Irish or that whiskey is an Irish product that shaped the world of pubs along with stouts like Guinness, it would only be an accurate article if titled British pub origins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.182.72.34 (talk) 02:20, 3 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

It seems strange to focus exclusively on Commenwealth countries. Pubs have a long history in the parts of the United States that were a part of the British empire for example New England and Virginia as well there are pubs with centuries of provenance dating to colonial times. Perhaps a section could be added? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:4040:5059:9B00:2835:E68A:93E6:4F1C (talk) 20:34, 13 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

Moved above comment to keep date order. To answer the point, there is no reason to exclude detail about pubs outside the Commonwealth, provided reliably sourced. Tony Holkham (Talk) 21:45, 13 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

I agree. Pubs are an international phenomenon and the article is too U.K./Comonwealth centric. Obscurasky (talk) 00:43, 14 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

I disagree 100%. Pubs are not an international phenomenon; they started in Great Britain - just because they have spread around the world does not justify their history being stolen from British culture. 51.6.69.71 (talk) 08:16, 13 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I don't think that's what's being suggested. Obscurasky (talk) 13:54, 13 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

The Public House was a British, specifically English, concept. This is explained in detail in Michael Jackson's book on the history of beer. Unfortunately I no longer have a copy so I can't give proper citations. Without citations I can't put the information on the wiki page. The public house was originally a private residence that brewed ale, Ale was sold in a public room. This room became the Public Bar. Gentry were entertained in the brewer's own living room. That is the origin of the saloon bar. Of course things have changed greatly over the last 600 years. Nevertheless, a Public House is a private house that is partly open to the public.

The consequence is the pub is British. There are bars World-wide and some have taken the name 'Pub'. Also British people have taken the Pub concept overseas. This should explain why the article concentrates so heavily on British Pubs.OrewaTel (talk) 23:12, 18 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

In his 1952 essay The Dour Drinkers of Glasgow, Hugh MacDiarmid claims "The fact is, of course, as the very term 'public house' shows, that the condition of the licence obliges the licence holder to have his place at the disposal of citizens at all times - not necessarily for drinking at all; a citizen is entitled to have the use of these places whenever he wants if only to use the lavatory or shelter from the weather, or read his newspaper, or meet a friend". If this is true, it would be worthy of inclusion. Is it, or was it, in Scotland or more widely? Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:59, 26 January 2020 (UTC)Reply

Despite his attempt to garnish the statement with some authority, by prefixing it with 'the fact is', it sounds like this is only the author's assumption; based (somewhat tenuously) on the use of the word 'public'. Are public libraries open at all times? I think you would need to find a reliable citation before including any of this. Obscurasky (talk) 11:54, 13 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

This article uses "saloon" and some dictionaries and the article for bar list it as "saloon bar".

In UK, they use both saloon and saloon bar to refer to the same "special" bar in a pub.^[1]

In USA, they only saloon and refer to the Wild West saloons.

Was "saloon bar" shortened as "saloon" at some point in time? When and where did this shortening happened?

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 12:18, 22 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

Back in 2009 someone wrote in a forum:

In the eighties, there were still quite a few pubs with public bars and saloon bars. The saloon bar was for visitors, and the public bar was for locals. Even then there was a lot of overspill. The serving area would cross both rooms. There would be seperate (sic) external entrances to each bar, often right next to each other. The public bar charged slightly less than the saloon bar, but not if you just walked in there - it was a ‘local pub for local people.’ Still, when ordering drinks you’d have to remind a new bar person which side of the bar you were ordering from.

There are still a few pubs that have a similar division, but they’re very rare indeed - I’ve only been to two such pubs in the last ten years. Most pubs still have separate entrances for the public and saloon bars, but they’re not treated as such - usually one will be permanently shut.

I only knew one place that still had a ladies’ bar, and that was a private members’ club; it was a place for woman to go, and no men were allowed at all.Women were only allowed in the main bar in about 1978 or so in that club. A few pubs still had ‘ladies’ signs up that did not refer to places you’d go to pee (they did have their own ladies’ toilets, but that was an adjunct to the ladies’ bar).

In Orwell’s time, the saloon bar would have been for the gentry and the public bar for everyone else. The women would not have drunk with the men in any but the most disreputable establishment.

And someone from Ireland replied that they had both layouts but he didn't think the "traditional" layout was in danger at all.

It is 2022 now, 13 years have gone by. If that division had practically disappeared back then, I guess the demise of this "layout" was completed long time ago in England. What happened in Ireland?

Source: https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-british-pub-what-are-the-public-bar-saloon-bar-etc/523109/10

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 12:39, 22 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

This [4] from 2010 says many were lost, not all, but I think even if they physically exist very few have any real distinction between both bars. (e.g. The_Eagle,_Cambridge has multiple 'bars' but no distinction between them.) Anecdotaly, there are many pubs with a defined split between 'the bar' and 'the seating area for food'. I remember one or two with strict age limits on 'The bar area', but that's going back a decade or two!. You may be asked if you want to sit 'in the bar' to eat etc. which I guess carries over from the public/saloon bar distinction just based on the layout of the buildings. No idea where to find sources for this. Maybe 'guide to eating in England' for tourists or something? JeffUK (talk) 11:26, 4 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

This explicitly names them as such "The Old Wheatsheaf has recently been refurbished and is now available for all your function needs. [...] Our Saloon bar has space for 40 people, our public bar has space for a further 40 people" [5] this has "Our saloon bar has a separate entrance and is the ideal venue to hire for early morning meetings." [6] I think it's clear they physically exist, and are still called 'public' and 'saloon' bars, but that's mostly a traditional distinction/naming. JeffUK (talk) 11:43, 4 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

The Wantage law code of Æthelred the Unready proscribes fines for breaching the peace at meetings held in alehouses.

The cited source is a book, so not easily verified. Did the law code proscribe (forbid) fines or prescribe (set) fines for breaching the peace? The former claim seems dubious to say the least, unless the implication is that special exceptions were made for disturbances created by group meetings. —Nonstopdrivel (talk) 17:41, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

What were the Pub opening times on Christmas Day 1960s onwards, I seem to remember that there were hours of 12am to 2am and 7pm to 10:30pm i.e. Sunday Hours at that time and all pubs had to abide to them hours, and this ended around 1974ish I think when it was then altered to a staggered opening times system e.g. 11am to 1am or even earlier and pubs did not open at all on the Christmas Evening. Terryog1952 (talk) 14:06, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Not sure whether adding pub opening times is too detailed for the article, but if there are sources to back it up we could add something briefly. Tony Holkham (Talk) 15:12, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Article is far too UK-centric already. Adding the opening hours for pubs just that one country would be a backwards step in my opinion. Obscurasky (talk) 20:40, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

"...the tavern was one of the traditional centers of social and political life before 1789" What happened in 1789? Was there some big event that a non-Brit wouldn't know about? No reference.```` Venqax (talk) 19:05, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Reply