Talk:Kill List

This article was nominated for deletion on 14 May 2013 (UTC). The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

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Can somebody rename this article "Kill List (film)" or "Kill List (2011 Film)"? That would be more in line with how other movies are titled on wikipedia. 214.13.69.132 (talk) 05:54, 31 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

Please see WP:NCF to see why disambiguation currently unnecessary. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:00, 28 June 2012 (UTC)Reply

By now it well may have become necessary. The "primary meaning" for the expression, as used in today's media, is no longer the film... -- Vmenkov (talk) 20:05, 14 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

There's a difference between the titles "Kill List" and "kill list"; the former being a title like this film, the latter being a phrase. You can see how this is treated with the television episode "Field Trip", which exist separately from the field trip article. An article on an actual "kill list" shouldn't use a capital L for list, so there's no need to change this page for another one to exist. GRAPPLE X 13:18, 15 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

agree it should be renamed to avoid confusion with the kill list, the common name for disposition matrix. Darkstar1st (talk) 10:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Kill List and Kill list now go to two separate articles. Should there be a disambiguation page? It's very odd for capitalisation to determine which article a person goes to. Akuri (talk) 20:38, 12 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

Since 2013, there is a book named The Kill List by Frederick Forsyth. 89.162.189.98 (talk) 12:56, 8 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

perhaps now we should create the disamb page to address the overlap? there seems to be consensus having the film as default is not optimal. Darkstar1st (talk) 13:11, 8 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

Per WP:DIFFCAPS, it is not necessary. For film-related similarities to that policy's example of red meat vs. Red Meat, we have items like panic room vs. Panic Room and hall pass vs. Hall Pass. Erik (talk | contribs) 13:17, 8 January 2014 (UTC)Reply

I believe it's worth mentioning that a significant amount of this film was shot with a Canon 5D. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.148.226.78 (talk) 23:40, 10 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

In this discussion a consensus was reached that "Kill List" should be a disambiguation page, with links to this article and to Disposition matrix. This article would be moved to Kill List (film). I know in the discussion above that was opposed, but it was a year ago, and I think the notability of the other kind of kill list has grown in the past year. I should make sure no one objects to this move before I move the article. Akuri (talk) 23:18, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

I pointed it out earlier and will again—this is unnecessary. Kill list and Kill List are two different articles; the current situation with the former being a redirect is the correct way to handle this. A hat note in this article to show anyone who arrives at the capitalised version by mistake where to go is really the only thing needed here. GRAPPLE X 23:27, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

i agree with Akuri. A good example would be air force one and Air Force One (film), or DEFCON and Defcon (album) and DEFCON (video game). perhaps relying solely on capitalization would produce too many wrong links, ex DEFCON (album) and DefCon (video game). Darkstar1st (talk) 09:54, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure those examples are particularly helpful—both Air Force One the film and Air Force One the plane are capitalised the same way, making the disambiguation necessary and wholly independent of casing; while the existence of several "DEFCON" subjects means each of them is going to need disambiguated anyway. This particular move is about the difference between a title whose component words are both capitalised (Kill List) versus a redirect with no necessary capitals (kill list, or Kill list). The software of the wiki is set up to allow these variant titles to exist separately, and makes little sense not to use that. No page move is needed; simply using a hat note on Kill List to say

For the concept of a "kill list", see Disposition Matrix.

, and one on Disposition Matrix to say

"kill list" redirects here. For the film, see Kill List.

. Solves all confusion. GRAPPLE X 10:06, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films), If the film is not the primary topic, name its article after the film's title with "(film)" added at the end. the amount of RS discussing the kill list far outnumber those discussing the film. Darkstar1st (talk) 11:56, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

This is the primary topic for its title, as its title is distinct from the other intended use thanks to how the wiki software handles casing. Unless there is another primary subject for Kill List with a capital L then we need to stop looking at this as being two articles with the same name, as they aren't. GRAPPLE X 11:59, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

Capital letters aRe noT excluded from disambig articles, see Hit list Darkstar1st (talk) 12:36, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

WP:PRECISION mentions red meat vs. Red Meat as an example. Other examples include panic room vs. Panic Room and hall pass vs. Hall Pass. The last sentence of that section of the guidelines says, "While each name in such a pair may already be precise and apt, a reader who enters one term might in fact be looking for the other; so use appropriate disambiguation techniques, such as hatnotes or disambiguation pages, to help readers find the article they want." Erik (talk | contribs) 12:40, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

it also says this may not be enough, While each name in such a pair may already be precise and apt, a reader who enters one term might in fact be looking for the other; so use appropriate disambiguation techniques, such as hatnotes or disambiguation pages, to help readers find the article they want., which is certainly the case here and elsewhere such as, Unknown soldier and Unknown Soldier (The Unit) and Unknown Soldier (album).

• notice the caps fail of Unknown Soldier (the Unit) which is precisely why we should avoid reliance solely on caps. Darkstar1st (talk) 16:44, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

That passage means to make sure both articles in lowercase and titlecase at least point to each other on the off-chance there might be a mix-up. It is a guideline that complements the acceptability of the "red meat" example; it does not contrast the example. EDIT: This is what the passage means by using appropriate disambiguation techniques. Erik (talk | contribs) 16:54, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

it also means, disambiguation pages, to help readers find the article they want.. since kill list is a book, tv episode, films (the Kill List is another film from 2007), and the current primary topic in RS kill list, we should definately have a disamb here. Darkstar1st (talk) 17:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

Can you link to the book and the TV episode you're referring to? I see the 2007 film at IMDb, but it does not appear notable enough to warrant any kind of secondary blue link. I see what you're saying about other topics, but I do not think a disambiguation page is needed if the topics you mention are not notable for Wikipedia. Erik (talk | contribs) 17:28, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

i would argue the same about this recent film from 2011 with a box office take of $171,760, not really wikipedia material. Darkstar1st (talk) 17:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

The 2011 film is clearly notable; see reviews at Metacritic. Can you please comment on the other topics? Erik (talk | contribs) 17:51, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

actually the film fails all 8 criteria here: [1] Darkstar1st (talk) 17:57, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

These guidelines are applied when the general notability guidelines cannot be applied. For example, coverage for an older film can be hard to find, but if we find reviews by Variety and The New York Times for the film, the presumption is that there is more coverage out there. Here, WP:GNG applies easily because there are many reviews of this film, not to mention non-review coverage. I do not think the other topics you mentioned meet Wikipedia's notability standards, but I wanted to know which book and which TV episode you're referring to so I can research these. Erik (talk | contribs) 18:03, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

"since all we are really asking is to put (film) beside the name, what is the big problem? relying on the use or lack of capital letters to avoid confusion twixt a limited release low budget horror movie that made less than 200k and a major global topic like kill list is just not adequate in this case. Darkstar1st (talk) 18:27, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

There is no problem with kill list vs. Kill List like there is no problem with red meat vs. Red Meat, the example mentioned in Wikipedia's policy on article titles. Both sets of articles now have hatnotes pointing to the other one. Article traffic statistics of the two articles do not demonstrate a significant difference either. There's no need for change. Erik (talk | contribs) 18:38, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply