Talk:Irish initial mutations

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The following reference(s) may be useful when improving this article in the future: Duffield, Nigel (June 1997). "Configuring Mutation in Irish". Canadian Journal of Linguistics/Revue canadienne de linguistique. 42 (Special 1-2: Topics in Celtic Syntax): 75–109. doi:10.1017/S0008413100016832. McCullough, Kerry (2022). The phonological and orthographic consequences of Irish initial consonant mutation (PhD thesis). University of Arizona. hdl:10150/665631. Robinson, Janine Fay (2015). Initial Consonant Mutation in Modern Irish: A Synchronic and Diachronic Analysis (MA thesis). San José State University. doi:10.31979/etd.f5ad-sep5.

I have begun moving information from my website at [1], where I can no longer edit it, to Wikipedia. This information is mine, so there are no copyvio problems. --Angr 21:38, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In the following sentence:

Ná cuir an bosca ar an mbord.

mbord is eclipsed. I was unable to find an explanation of why that's the case. Does the "ar an" combination trigger the eclipsis or is there some other rule not outlined in the eclipsis section of the article? Help will be much appreciated.--204.193.71.8 20:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

In Connacht and Munster, most preposition + singular definite article combinations trigger eclipsis. See Irish initial mutations#Dative singular nouns after the definite article. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 20:45, 12 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ah, I missed that section. Thanks much!--204.193.71.8 20:52, 12 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

In Pedersen's A concise comparative Celtic Grammar (1961) p.60 line 5 for the word <slat> 'rod' is given Arran dialect forms with lenited as hlat and "with the article əN tlat ", and then the Donegal dialect's equivalent forms with lat and tlat. I don't see any such mutations in this article - is this correspondence sl - hl - tl seen in other dialects? Examples? It strikes me as quite puzzling if one wished to explain where the t in tl- comes from. Jakob37 13:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)Reply

The "l" has nothing to do with it. /h/ is the usual lenition of /s/, and /t/ is an exceptional lenition of /s/ after the definite article an (see Irish initial mutations#After proclitics, toward the bottom of the subsection After the definite article. In the orthography, /hlat/ is spelled shlat and /tlat is spelled tslat. —Angr 14:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)Reply

Interesting! Are there other initial sounds which undergo "exceptional lenitions"? With s , it seems to be a case (in terms of generative phonology) of the preceding nasal (of the article) containing a stop feature which spreads to the s. Jakob37 04:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)Reply

Except that it only applies when lenition would be expected. I'm pretty much convinced (and have published a paper to this effect) that the Celtic initial mutations cannot be explained by means of phonological rules or constraints at all; rather, they are entirely morphological phenomena. —Angr 05:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)Reply

May I have a reference to your paper? (altho finding it here in Taiwan may be another matter...)Jakob37 09:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC)Reply

These are not listed in the article. I would add them myself but I don't have my books with me and I'm not sure about the corrct IPA symbols. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 13:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)Reply

In Munster I believe there is evidence for nasalization of /s/ to /z/, as Sasana > i zSasana. Should this be described in this article? -- Evertype·✆ 12:59, 30 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Sure, if you got a source for it. It can go in Munster Irish, too. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:35, 31 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

This seems to be confined to the dialect of Cape Clear Island off the southern coast of County Cork. See Gaeilge Chléire in the series An Teanga Bheo, © 2003 Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann, § 2.11, pp. 10-11. Kostaki mou (talk) 04:04, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

English has standardised words for these mutations: lenition and eclipsis. These terms were also always used in this article until some dimwit changed it in 2018. This was a very bad idea that must necessarily be reverted in my opinion. First of all, the only reason that ever justifies using foreign-language terms is the absence of a standardised native nomenclature, which is not the case here. But even if the terms "lenition" and "eclipsis" were not generally excepted, they would still be preferable because they mean something. At least "lenition" is readily understood by anybody with a bit of phonological knowledge. The Irish terms mean nothing (to the non-Irish English-speaker) and are hence very difficult to remember. 88.64.225.98 (talk) 14:33, 28 October 2019 (UTC)Reply

to clarify a possible reason someone made that decision - everyone in Ireland who has studied Irish (it's obligatory in primary and secondary education, so, everyone basically) will have learned the words séimhiú (lenition) and úrú (eclipsis). No one, unless they study linguistics in college, will recognise or think to look up the English terms lenition or eclipsis. So I imagine someone made that change to make this article on Irish more accessible to Irish people and those learning Irish in Ireland.

Of course your argument for why it should be in standardised English still stands, but I thought maybe this information could clarify the intentions of the person who changed it, apart them from being "some dimwit". 2001:861:5700:4370:D037:A416:B2AD:4014 (talk) 20:03, 23 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

The current article text has the following on séimhiú, among other things:

1. • /t̪ˠ/ → /hʲ/
   • /tʲ/ → /h/

All the other slender (or palatalized) consonants that undergo séimhiú (without being deleted) change into other palatal(ized) sounds.

Also, according to several sources, among which http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/lenition.htm, both broad and slender t change into h.

So, could there be an error in the list? And should the items quoted above be changed into:

1. • /t̪ˠ/ → /h/
   • /tʲ/ → /h/?

Thanks for the answer of a knowledgeable person!Redav (talk) 23:53, 5 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

There is a slight difference. As with all broad/slender prononciation changes - the slender th is pronounced with the back of the tongue closer to the roof of the mouth, making more of a /hʲ/ sound, while the tongue drops for the broad th, making a /h/ sound. In spoken language they sound almost identical I guess, but they are formed slightly differently, and in isolation you can hear that difference. 2001:861:5700:4370:D037:A416:B2AD:4014 (talk) 19:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

This section is missing clarification and examples, could someone add some? The link, "Blocked Lenition" gives examples that already fall into other categories on this article, or in languages other than Irish. 2001:861:5700:4370:D037:A416:B2AD:4014 (talk) 19:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)Reply