Talk:ConEmu

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the ConEmu article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the subject of the article.

Add new text under old text. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Start a new topic Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Individuals with a conflict of interest, particularly those representing the subject of the article, are strongly advised not to directly edit the article. See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. You may request corrections or suggest content here on the Talk page for independent editors to review, or contact us if the issue is urgent.

This article was nominated for deletion on 23 August 2015. The result of the discussion was keep.

This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Articles for creation This article was reviewed by member(s) of WikiProject Articles for creation. The project works to allow users to contribute quality articles and media files to the encyclopedia and track their progress as they are developed. To participate, please visit the project page for more information.Articles for creationWikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creationTemplate:WikiProject Articles for creationAfC This article was accepted on 25 September 2012 by reviewer SarahStierch (talk · contribs). Microsoft Windows (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Microsoft Windows, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Microsoft WindowsWikipedia:WikiProject Microsoft WindowsTemplate:WikiProject Microsoft WindowsMicrosoft Windows Computing: Software Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Computing, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of computers, computing, and information technology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ComputingWikipedia:WikiProject ComputingTemplate:WikiProject ComputingComputing Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Software (assessed as Low-importance).

The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. Maximus7792 (talk · contribs) / ConEmu This user has contributed to the article. This user has declared a connection. (see details of this image file - this user is copyright holder for the logo; is a WP:SPA for this article per their contribs, and "Maximus5" is the uploader/maintainer of this software at Github per this. See also stealth canvassing/meatpuppet recruitment here)

There have been attempts to recruit editors of specific viewpoints to this article. If you've come here in response to such recruitment, please review the Wikipedia policies on canvassing and neutral point of view. Disputes on Wikipedia are resolved by consensus, not by majority vote.

The foreign language sources don't help the topic, particularly since several of them are primary sources. TEDickey (talk) 23:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)Reply

Is it better to remove all foreign sources, even if there is no similar english one? Maximus7792 (talk) 19:28, 27 September 2012 (UTC)Reply

The sources given and your edits are largely covered in WP:Notability, WP:Verifiability, and WP:COI. TEDickey (talk) 14:08, 29 September 2012 (UTC)Reply

I've removed the limitations section, which said:

   There is opinion of configuration dialog is overwhelmed and hundred of settings 
   may be daunting for new users.[1]

That doesn't sound like a prima facie limitation, and the source given state:

   Your first glance at the settings dialog will leave you feeling a bit overwhelmed. 
   I still find new features and options every time I go into the settings window. 
   It would be nice to see the settings laid out in a more organized fashion to 
   reduce the overload. I would also like to see some of the more common and 
   useful setting made to stand out or be easier to find.

which isn't describing a limitation. Note: I'm not saying that ConEmu doesn't have limitations, just that this source isn't supportive of this limitation. TheBjorn (talk) 21:01, 7 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

Two more sources, but not sure if they are acceptable. ConEmu review by FossHub and Softpedia Editor's review. Both reviews do not affilate to software author.Maximus7792 (talk) 09:22, 25 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Listed in MOSS/Projects in use by Mozilla. Maximus7792 (talk) 16:32, 24 October 2015 (UTC)Reply

I do not see reason to remove most quality terminal emulator for windows from wikipedia. You better to remove all this list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terminal_emulators. Yes information is weak, but very useful for certain developers community. -- Firanolfin (talk) 05:27, 22 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Look how great community is speaking about it http://habrahabr.ru/post/164687/ --Firanolfin (talk) 05:31, 22 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

It would help if an established editor (particularly one whose edits were primarily on other topics) contributed opinions (see WP:SPA for context) TEDickey (talk) 10:14, 22 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hello TEDickey. I don't know if I would qualify as an "established editor", but I am a long time user of Wikipedia, mostly as a reader, with only occasional edits over the years, primarily on other topics.

My opinion is that this article should stay. ConEmu is very popular and well known among software developers, system administrators, and other heavy users of command line terminals, who are using Microsoft Windows on their workstations (whether by choice or forced by company policy).

It is notable for being the only actively maintained replacement for the native Windows terminal, that is still capable of handling native Windows console programs.

Most of the other alternatives (mintty, PuTTY, etc) can only handle simple stdin/stdout redirection for programs running inside the terminal, but as soon as a program attempts to access any native Windows console APIs, it stops working correctly under these terminals. The only other terminal (besides ConEmu) that can emulate native Windows console APIs is Console2, which unfortunately hasn't been maintained for years and is essentially a dead project now. Grnch (talk) 17:07, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Please don't delete this article. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.49.151.215 (talk) 11:37, 22 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I am a frequent user of ConEmu, please don't delete this article, but I can agree that the article could definitely be improved on the way that it is written.Zer0rest (talk) 03:54, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Just a quick vote for keeping this article around to give it time to mature. AmbulatoryCorpse (talk) 07:33, 25 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

ConEmu is one of (if not the) best terminal emulator for Windows, so removing this article just does not make sense. Einarth (talk) 05:14, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

You all need to read WP:NOTABILITY which is the policy that governs whether an article stays or goes. WP is not a fan club where we keep or delete b/c of what people like, or find useful. What matters is whether there are sufficient independent, reliable sources about the article subject, or not. Grnch are there reliable sources that say what you wrote about what this program does and what makes it better than everything else out there? (think about really good ones, that every one would trust) Jytdog (talk) 17:14, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Hi Jytdog, the article already has several references to online publications, that seem pretty independent and reliable to me. I wasn't able to verify the Russian language ones, but the English references seem to satisfy the WP:SOURCES criteria. Is there anything about these references that makes them unsuitable in your opinion? Any guidance here would be much appreciated.

I would be willing to put some effort into fleshing out the article some more, as well as locating other references as needed to back up any added text, but I have a pretty busy day job and can't do this on short notice. I'll try to find a couple hours to look into this, but I probably won't get to it until the next weekend.

Is there any deadline associated with these deletion proposals? Wikipedia is mostly maintained by volunteers donating their free time whenever they can, so I would hope that it has more lenient timelines for article improvements. Grnch (talk) 17:42, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

ConEmu was [project of the month for SourceForge on May 2015]. While this alone doen't cover the notability requirements, there are multiple reviews and awards from independent sources. While the author seems to push a little too hard for his program's visibility, that doesn't negate the fact that it is referenced very prominently on several review and download sites. Regarding SourceForge, it definitely has significant coverage (the article refers to ConEmu exclusively), it is reliable (even though the last years it's become a bit more shady, it still one of the largests sites of its kind), these are secondary sources, independent of the subject. GSchizas 11:51, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I've verified the Russian language. The links looks satisfying the WP:SOURCES criteria. Please, do not delete — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiphon (talk • contribs) 18:43, 26 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Moving this here for now. This is not encyclopedic content but rather a "features" list like you would find a website offering this product for download.

• Multiple tabbed windows for console applications^[2][3] and Far Manager editors and viewers
• Easily resize the window, both horizontally & vertically by dragging the corner^[2]
• One-click access to new console tab^[2]
• Run simple GUI apps in tabs^[4][5]
• Attach and detach console windows^[5]
• Configurable colors^[2]
• Optional background image and transparency^[2]
• Line-based or block-based text selection (instead of the column selection in the windows console)^[5]
• Integration with FAR Manager^[2][4][5]
• User-defined startup tabs^[5]
• Windows 7 Jump Lists and Progress on Taskbar buttons^[2][4]
• Easily run old DOS applications (games) in Windows 7^[4] - DosBox integration
• Running as Administrator selected tabs;^[2][4]
• Thumbnails and tiles in Far Man^[5]des^[2]
• Using 24-bit colors in Far Manager 3.x^[6]
• Drag and drop (explorer style) of files and folders in Far Manager^[4]
• Status Bar Details^[2][4]
• Chinese support^[7]
• Scale terminal text by holding your ctrl button and scrolling your mouse-wheel

ok Jytdog (talk) 19:06, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

That reads as an advertisement, and detracts from the (already low) quality of this topic. TEDickey (talk) 22:56, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Bypassing is probably a better word. GSchizas 06:57, 26 August 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gschizas (talk • contribs)

Omitting the promotional text would be an improvement, but see my comment above. TEDickey (talk) 08:10, 26 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

What promotional text? I didn't copy-paste this from anywhere, I wrote it on my own. It is a very important feature that none of the other conhost replacement programs (Take Command, Console2, mintty etc.) have and it's a differentiator. GSchizas 09:00, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

mintty is reported to do 256-colors, and "differentiator" again is leading in the direction of promotional edits. To make this encyclopedic, the text should use reliable sources, which as noted:

Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we publish the opinions only of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves.

Along that line, most of the existing sources on this topic fall short of that guideline. TEDickey (talk) 09:10, 26 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

The fact that ConEmu supports 256 and 24-bit colors or the fact that it has a macro language aren't opinions, though. Regarding the "existing sources" etc., it's definitely a specialists' program, but even so, I'd say Scott Hanselman (for example) is a very prominent third party author - not to mention Rex Conn, who would be even considered a competitor. They both did extensive reviews of several conhost replacement programs. GSchizas 09:26, 26 August 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gschizas (talk • contribs)

Neither ANSI X3.64 (long withdrawn) or ISO 6429 defined anything other than 8 colors. Anything beyond that lies in the implementation-specific region. Citing "ANSI" misleads the reader into supposing that it was something official, and since no reliable source is likely, it should be toned down. TEDickey (talk) 23:53, 24 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

They are called ANSI escape codes though (formerly and sometimes commonly known as ANSI X3.64 codes). The ESC[38m and ESC[48m are defined in the ECMA-48 standard (which is what ANSI adopted as ANSI X3.64) as "38/48 (reserved for future standardization; intended for setting character foreground/background colour as specified in ISO 8613-6 [CCITT Recommendation T.416])". More to the point, ANSI escape codes in Linux and Mac OS X already implement this in the exact same way, so it's become a de facto standard anyway. GSchizas 06:56, 26 August 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gschizas (talk • contribs)

None of your comment addresses the issue raised, and is essentially a circular argument. TEDickey (talk) 08:08, 26 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

How is it a circular argument? The relevant sequence is defined in the ECMA-48 (so there is a reliable source), and the ESC[38m/ESC[48m codes are defined for the Linux console (I'm not sure if the Linux man pages are supposed to be reliable sources, but I do think it's the definite source for this extension). Furthermore, this discussion really doesn't belong here, it should rather be a part of the ANSI escape codes page. ConEmu just implements the ESC[38m/ESC[48m codes, as displayed on that page. Perhaps I don't see your point, but whether ANSI X3.64 or ECMA-48 or ISO 6429 are proper names for what is called (by Wikipedia, too) ANSI escape codes is not an issue with the ConEmu page. In any case, I have removed any reference to the ANSI X3.64, and replaced it with the ANSI escape codes, since that is the actual page. GSchizas 09:10, 26 August 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gschizas (talk • contribs)