Talk:Borscht
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Place of origin
Is there any scientific evidence that borscht originated in Ukraine? I mean, that claim requires extraordinary evidence. Not just source less statements from a third rate culinary encyclopedia Uloqopo (talk) 11:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- Simple answer: apparently, it's a reference to a particular style of the soup like the one that made its way to the Borscht Belt; just like holishkes are not golabki. E.g. apparently "borscht" in English is not equal to the whole borshch family of soups + casserole-like hearty dishes + slop-like dishes in between. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 13:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- By the particular style of borscht, they mean beetroot soup. But again, there is no evidence that that type of borscht originated in Ukraine. There is a certain recipe called Ukrainian borscht. This name came from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Tasty_and_Healthy_Food This book has two recipes for borscht: Ukrainian Borscht and Borscht. The only difference between the two receipts is that Ukrainian borscht contains salo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salo_(food)
- The source of the misconception is the name Ukrainian Borscht, which doesn’t mean that this recipe originated from Ukraine. Uloqopo (talk) 18:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- Oh. "Kniga o vkusnoi i poleznoi pishche" is indeed the magnum opus that formed the Soviet cuisine. Could be useful to check. Especially given the fact salo is a stereotype-like attribute. Sadly, I am too busy to check the book right now. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- UPDATE: still failed to read the Soviet (public domain, most likely) book. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:28, 7 April 2025 (UTC)
- Oh. "Kniga o vkusnoi i poleznoi pishche" is indeed the magnum opus that formed the Soviet cuisine. Could be useful to check. Especially given the fact salo is a stereotype-like attribute. Sadly, I am too busy to check the book right now. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:59, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
- Context: the information comes from TaivoLinguist; see the archived pages, section #3. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 14:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
- It is regognised by Unesco as a cultural heritage https://ich.unesco.org/en/USL/culture-of-ukrainian-borscht-cooking-01852
- Also the oldest mention of borscht dates back to 1584. Merchants traveled from Lviv to Moscow via Kyiv. One of them left notes stating that borscht for the Ruthenians (residents of Kyiv - ed.) was both food and drink. The ancient borscht was also mentioned by the ancient church figure Ivan Vyshensky (1600) and the writer Jakub Gawatovych (1610).
- The oldest Polish cookbook (1682) mentions two borscht recipes: one with lemon, the other with three different types of fish. Other recipes mention borscht made from hogweed a little later.
- The vegetable, similar to the current beet, appeared in Eastern Europe in the 16th century. There is an assumption that it was included in borscht at the end of the 17th century. The topographic description (1775) of the Kharkiv Governorate mentions a recipe for borscht with beets and sour kvass, which was the most popular dish of the time. Uzik (talk) 10:07, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
Origin
Just remove this entirely because there is no consensus on this, calling it Ukrainian or like some others in here want to claim it as Polish/Russian is ridiculous, it only stroke the flames and makes Wikipedia look bad. 155.4.128.174 (talk) 04:52, 11 February 2025 (UTC)
- Actually, there is a very long-standing consensus on this. Consensus doesn't mean that uninvolved editors don't occasionally drive through and try to push their opinion. It means that long-time users have come to an agreement based on the evidence. TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 11:22, 12 February 2025 (UTC)
- Ah, we have this "holishkes vs golabki" tier argument again (both are cabbage rolls bu-u-u-ut...).
- 81.89.66.133 (talk) 13:35, 4 March 2025 (UTC)
- Context: turns out, the borscht qua borscht is what have made it to NY's outskirts known as Borscht Belt first (and don't get me started how Zima the drink hasn't been advertised as something "winter-themed"). 81.89.66.133 (talk) 15:02, 5 March 2025 (UTC)
- CONTEXT: Just like with the cabbage rolls; for beetroot soups, it's pretty much could have been "borsch vs botvinya". Yet, botvinya is an ancient word now instead. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:07, 7 April 2025 (UTC)
- Context: turns out, the borscht qua borscht is what have made it to NY's outskirts known as Borscht Belt first (and don't get me started how Zima the drink hasn't been advertised as something "winter-themed"). 81.89.66.133 (talk) 15:02, 5 March 2025 (UTC)
- A better thing to put there would be just having the origin as "Eastern European". 23emr (talk | contributions) 18:26, 31 March 2025 (UTC)
- No, it wouldn't. That's a cop-out when the earliest documentary evidence points unequivocally to Ukraine. "Eastern European" is far too broad a region, from the Oder to the Volga. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 02:03, 1 April 2025 (UTC)
- But can you tell if the documentary refers specifically to the beetroots? Maybe, those are the upper, green-leaf part of the beets thats were meant to be cooked in those clues? That's where it gets difficult. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 06:51, 7 April 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry. Monday mornng vibes. NVM the qstn plz. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 06:59, 7 April 2025 (UTC)
- >to Volga
- Almost. It reaches Ural. See Boundaries_between_the_continents. The region also includes a good chunk of Kazakhstan - Guryev a.k.a. Atirau is an Eastern European city. Guryevskaya kasha, however, is not related to the city. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:35, 18 September 2025 (UTC)
- The first evidence of Borscht comes from Kiev in 1584, which was then part of Poland-Lithuania. Anyways, the inhabitants of this region back then where Russians, an Ukrainian identity started to exist in the 19th century. Phillipm0703 (talk) 16:34, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
- But can you tell if the documentary refers specifically to the beetroots? Maybe, those are the upper, green-leaf part of the beets thats were meant to be cooked in those clues? That's where it gets difficult. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 06:51, 7 April 2025 (UTC)
- No, it wouldn't. That's a cop-out when the earliest documentary evidence points unequivocally to Ukraine. "Eastern European" is far too broad a region, from the Oder to the Volga. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 02:03, 1 April 2025 (UTC)
- There is, as many have stated here, a scholarly consensus on the origins of borshch in Ukraine. There is debate today only because of nationalist political interests, but the actual scholarly understanding is quite homogenous among those without a political agenda. In fact, we can point to plenty of other sources from countries which now make a lot of borshch referring to the dish as Ukrainian. This is not a complicated issue, and the page is correct as is. 24.19.200.57 (talk) 21:10, 23 October 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with OP. I believe politicisation unfortunately has influenced some discussion around origins. But claims of a sole national origin by any modern state are not supported by historic records. And acknowledging shared regional origin helps to avoid politicisation and avoid the appearance of favouring one modern country over another. Readers should be informed it's traced to Kievan Rus whose boundaries did not align neatly with present day Ukraine but had spanned other regions like Belarus, western Russia and Poland, or more broadly a large area of Eastern Europe. As noted by British writer Lesley Chamberlain, it "doesn't fit in with particular geographical boundaries". [1] JaredMcKenzie (talk) 01:24, 7 December 2025 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 21 May 2025
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Bad kinder (talk) 16:39, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
It’s correct to name it borsch, not “borscht”.
Borsch is Ukrainian intangible cultural heritage, recognised by UNESCO. The Ukrainian word is борщ (pronounced roughly as “borshch”). The correct transliteration from Ukrainian is: borshch, or simplified to borsch for ease in English.
The “borscht” spelling entered English via Yiddish and Russian due to Jewish diaspora and Russian imperial influence. Ukrainians today prefer “borsch” to reclaim the dish’s cultural and national identity, especially after UNESCO recognized Ukrainian borsch as part of the country’s intangible cultural heritage.
Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}}template. This has been discussed previously at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Borscht/Archive_1#Requested_move and the consensus was for the current name. Has anything changed since then? meamemg (talk) 17:20, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Found the WP:CONSENSUS TaivoLingust refers to, I guess... 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:13, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
Siberian borsch info is not true
We, Siberians, do not consume borsch with any kind of meatballs, we still prefer pork ribs as they give a full bullion taste. However, it's different from original Ruthen/Russian variants by the lack of beetroot - it's not red, but orange hence that Siberian Snake (talk) 18:50, 10 October 2025 (UTC)
Correction needed on origin?
Um, modern Ukraine’s borders did not exist 1,000 years ago. So it's somewhat inaccurate to say it originated only in Ukraine. More accurately, it can definitely be safely said that it originated in Kievan Rus’ back then, which is not a modern nation state. That old terrority is today's parts of west Russia, Belarus, Poland and of course, Ukraine. Cannot imply development of Borscht can occur only within Ukraine modern borders because such borders did not even exist, and cultural linguistic space was shared East Slavic. I propose adding in (East slavic) or early Kievan Rus as origin - as that is unlikely to be wrong and is potentially fairer to Poland and Belarus that may have also helped key development. JaredMcKenzie (talk) 22:15, 26 November 2025 (UTC)
- Do you have a source we can use? Valereee (talk) 14:22, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
- It may help to clarify which type of borscht we are talking about, as there are multiples. If you mean the 18th century beets adapted version, then Ukraine is cited the most as the main centre of the beet-based form development. If you are referring to early borscht version, then its origins are in the ancient Kievan Rus[2], where it started as a simple sour soup made from the wild hogweed plant and no beets. Beets was merely a later adaptation to the recipe, but early borscht definitely did not include any beets or even tomatoes. In any case, it's just more accurate to refer to Kievan Rus which is politically centred on modern Ukraine but geographically spanned a large region that includes what is now Belarus and parts of western Russia, where local versions of borscht also developed too. JaredMcKenzie (talk) 15:19, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
- I think we already mention those roots in the History section? Valereee (talk) 15:26, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
- @Valereee Yes I read the history section. The irony is that the very word "borscht" is referring to the most earliest borscht's main ingredient, hogweed. And over time, other ingredients like cabbages were added, and hogweed was replaced. The name "borscht" today is accurately a generic term for a wide variety of regional sour soups, that includes the beet-based one that Ukraine popularized. JaredMcKenzie (talk) 15:30, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
- We have covered this topic extensively in the archives, which you should read before continuing. None of these issues has lacked discussion and eventual consensus. Borscht has its origins among the Ukrainians in Ukraine. Read the history before continuing. As to the issue of "names", we call things "German" even before there was a "Germany", or "Italian" even before there was an "Italy". Borscht has its origin among Ukrainians. The second issue that in English (this is the English Wikipedia) the term "borscht" refers primarily, and perhaps even exclusively, to beet-based borscht. Other soups carry other names. Thus the primary reference for English speakers will be red and beet-based and Ukrainian. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 20:38, 6 December 2025 (UTC)
Some caution is needed. Ukraine was certainly central to development and popularization of beet based borscht but historical landscape is more complex than a single national origin. The areas associated with early borscht traditions are traced to Kievan Rus and later east Slavic regions, which today corresponds to modern Ukraine, as well as parts of Belarus, Poland and western Russia. Kievan Rus wasn't solely confined to the terrority of present day Ukraine. This is not intended to diminish Ukraine's significant role but historical evidence show the dishes origin are regional and shared, rather than strictly confined to one modern state.JaredMcKenzie (talk) 00:28, 7 December 2025 (UTC)- Ok, I read some of the archives. There seems to be some concensus that beet borscht and ancient hogweed borscht aren't same category, and Wikipedia refers to beets version. Tho is there even proof that beet based borscht solely came from Ukraine only, and excludes the rest of Eastern Europe? That seems like something that can never be fully proven, and it remains contentious. [3] Regardless article seems mostly correct, tho possibly not perfect but I am not getting caught up in a political debate on origin of a soup, so consider the thread over on my part.JaredMcKenzie (talk) 03:51, 7 December 2025 (UTC)
- Well, caution is needed indeed. There is plenty of evidence that the "borsch/barscz" was referring to non-beet soups as well. In olden times the word "borshch" in Russia referred to weed now is known as "borshchevik", i.e., hogweed. For example there is a 18th century book by Nestor Maksimovich-Ammbodik which devotes 8 pages to Borschch plant and says in part that dwellers of Kamchatka (Russian Far East, way far from Ukraine) knew the juicy sweet plant and used it for food in multitudes of ways: roots, stems, leaves, raw/cooked, made sugar and medicine from it, and even vodka! Since borscht has become politicixed, I am sure a research interest in it is rekindled and will produce even more gastroethnographic discoveries. --Altenmann >talk 04:08, 7 December 2025 (UTC)
- We have covered this topic extensively in the archives, which you should read before continuing. None of these issues has lacked discussion and eventual consensus. Borscht has its origins among the Ukrainians in Ukraine. Read the history before continuing. As to the issue of "names", we call things "German" even before there was a "Germany", or "Italian" even before there was an "Italy". Borscht has its origin among Ukrainians. The second issue that in English (this is the English Wikipedia) the term "borscht" refers primarily, and perhaps even exclusively, to beet-based borscht. Other soups carry other names. Thus the primary reference for English speakers will be red and beet-based and Ukrainian. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 20:38, 6 December 2025 (UTC)
- @Valereee Yes I read the history section. The irony is that the very word "borscht" is referring to the most earliest borscht's main ingredient, hogweed. And over time, other ingredients like cabbages were added, and hogweed was replaced. The name "borscht" today is accurately a generic term for a wide variety of regional sour soups, that includes the beet-based one that Ukraine popularized. JaredMcKenzie (talk) 15:30, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
- I think we already mention those roots in the History section? Valereee (talk) 15:26, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
- It may help to clarify which type of borscht we are talking about, as there are multiples. If you mean the 18th century beets adapted version, then Ukraine is cited the most as the main centre of the beet-based form development. If you are referring to early borscht version, then its origins are in the ancient Kievan Rus[2], where it started as a simple sour soup made from the wild hogweed plant and no beets. Beets was merely a later adaptation to the recipe, but early borscht definitely did not include any beets or even tomatoes. In any case, it's just more accurate to refer to Kievan Rus which is politically centred on modern Ukraine but geographically spanned a large region that includes what is now Belarus and parts of western Russia, where local versions of borscht also developed too. JaredMcKenzie (talk) 15:19, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
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