Talk:Ancillary services

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I added sections about additional types of ancillary services and added information about the potential role that renewables and electric vehicles may play in providing ancillary services. I also elaborated on the definition and summary. The section on reactive power is not very accurate and could definitely be improved. There are many different types of ancillary services, and the way the article is currently written makes it sound like the six mentioned by FERC are the only types, which isn't strictly true. Additionally, a section on the economics of ancillary services would be interesting to add, however I do not know enough about the economics to do so. Cb8383 (talk) 16:52, 27 April 2015 (UTC)Reply

Just ran across references to RegA and RegD which are characterized as related to following demand vs responding to dynamic instability. Are these dividing the six services into two, or are there RegA, RegB,... RegF? These two, RegA RegD, seem to show up in PJM articles in google. Mulp (talk) 19:05, 15 September 2016 (UTC)Reply

The current title seems to be WP:MISPLACED given that there exist redirects from Ancillary serviceAncillary service and Ancillary services.

Although there exists an unrelated use of this term in medicine, referring to radiology and other diagnostic tests, that does not matter under current policies.

Just pointing this out, as I'm not yet sure what should be done. --SoledadKabocha (talk) 20:45, 27 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

If you can point to other articles that describe things called "ancillary services", we can create a WP:disambiguation page in place of one of them. This will require also redoing ("disambiguating") all the links to the newly created "disambiguation page". If the other (non-electrical) meaning is not yet described in Wikipedia, you might want to describe it first. Викидим (talk) 21:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

From a quick glance at Special:PrefixIndex/Ancillary, the medical meaning does not yet appear to have an article that uses that specific word; the closest article would be Medical test, but it doesn't mention the word "ancillary," making it unsuitable.

I was already aware of all this, and I did figure out myself that one of the offending redirect titles would need to become a disambiguation page if a suitable article existed (presumably Ancillary serviceAncillary service because WP:SINGULAR), but I'm in no hurry to get this resolved - you could say I was just brain-dumping. --SoledadKabocha (talk) 00:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Per MOS:DABRED the red links on disambiguation pages are discouraged, so some kind of text (not necessarily a dedicated article) will be needed before the suggested improvements in the Ancillary service. Викидим (talk) 01:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, but I am already aware of that guideline—I am in no hurry to create the disambiguation page either; I just wanted to make sure what was on my mind was noted, and none of this was intended as a request for help. --SoledadKabocha (talk) 04:16, 28 May 2024 (UTC) (copyedits: 04:23, 28 May 2024 (UTC))Reply

I am sorry for misinterpreting your words "I'm not yet sure what should be done". Викидим (talk) 05:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

An addition of text, with formulas, on the subject of inertia of rotating machines, was reverted, as this article is about services, not the synchronous generator parameters. The article that deal with inertia in the grid is Inertial response (for avoidance of doubt, I do not think that this text is needed there, too). The statements in the text are quite a bit dated, too: the modern Inverter-based resources can provide frequency control, see section "Renewable generation" in this article. Викидим (talk) 19:43, 3 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for you comment, I agree that the text might be a bit of topic. Im new to editing so i appreciate the feedback.

I do however not agree with you that the statement is dated. The frequency response is directly connected to the total inertia of the grid. Thats just system dynamics. As I mentioned in my text a decrease of total inertia in the grid will lead to the converter based production units having to have faster deployment times.

I merly thought that some background to why frequency control is needed would improve the page. Anton Gron (talk) 20:08, 3 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

After some consideration I am realising I have been a little lazy with my explanations in the article. My goal was not to show the parameters for a synchronous generator, but just to use the generator as an example to understand the overall dynamics.

The final equation is to represent the entire grid. H is the normalized inertial constant for the entire grid and the frequency is the grid frequency. It is to have nothing to do with a synchronous generator, rather how the grid frequency react to a power imbalance.

Do you think a more concise explanation on that would be good to have in the article, or could I try to write something along those lines?

Br Anton Gron (talk) 20:20, 3 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yes, the article would definitely benefit from some high-level overview of frequency control. I would even argue that an article dedicated to frequency control would be very useful, and can naturally contain a lot of details. As-is, the Frequency control redirects here, there is also some related information (very brief) in the above-mentioned Inertial response (sections "Synchronous generators" and "Fast frequency response"), Utility frequency#Load-frequency control, and Power system operations and control#Control after disturbance, so centralizations will be good, with links to this new article from all four places via {{main}}). There are plenty of sources for writing such an article. If it would be up to me, I would use the Chapters 1 and 2 of

• Bevrani, Hassan (2014-06-18). Robust Power System Frequency Control. Springer. ISBN 978-3-319-07278-4.

but you most likely have better sources in mind (I am not an expert in the field). Викидим (talk) 22:48, 3 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

The chapter on frequency control should be divided into primary and secondary frequency control. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anton Gron (talk • contribs)

• I still think that the detailed explanation of the frequency control belongs to a dedicated article, that is yet to be created. Thsi article is about services, so the section on frequency control should briefly explain what is it and why it is needed, yet concentrate on the service aspect (who provides it and how they are being paid for the service). The inertia aspect is a relatively small portion of the service issue (essentially, in a grid with synchronous generators inertia is a near-free portion of the fast frequency control). In the grid where rotating machinery is replaced by the inverter-based resources someone needs to overbuild these resources to be able to provide the inertia-like action, this someone will need to get paid. --Викидим (talk) 08:14, 6 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

I do agree with you! I will in near time try to start the article on frequency control where the subject is in greater detail explained. The inertial aspect is of very great importance since its size is what determines the RoCoF. I do agree that the article should focus on the ancillary services but the speed and stability of the frequency control strategies are directly coupled to RoCoF i.e. the total inertia. So understanding how inertia and frequency interplay is the main thing when designing the future control methologies for converter based frequency regulation.

I think that the explanation I have added is quite brief and as long as there is no dedicated frequency control article I think it has a place in this article.

I will try to add some text related on the frequency balance markets which are being developed and implemented to secure primary and Secondary frequency control

Thanks for all feedback Anton Gron (talk) 14:54, 6 April 2025 (UTC)Reply