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Cryptocurrencies are not currencies. Ponzi schemes maybe but not currencies. I propose that the be removed from the template. John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:26, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20220915202600","author":"John Maynard Friedman","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220915202600-Remove_cryptocurrency_symbols","replies":["c-Drmccreedy-20220915214000-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220915202600","c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220916110100-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220915202600","c-DePiep-20220916115200-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220915202600","c-Roostery123-20220916123500-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220915202600"]}}-->
I agree they should be removed. There are around 9,000 cryptocurrencies which makes them unsuitable for a navigation box in any case. DRMcCreedy (talk) 21:40, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20220915214000","author":"Drmccreedy","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Drmccreedy-20220915214000-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220915202600","replies":[]}}-->
In the light of the edit summary associated with Roostery123's removal of the {{relevance inline}} tag ("cryptocurrency is a type of digital currency so it is relevant enough to be in this template"), the fact that these systems call themselves "currencies" does not make them currencies, which is why they have a distinctive name and distinct article. Cowrie shells are also a medium of exchange: are they to be listed as currencies too? if not, why not? [I have reinstated the tag pending conclusion of this discussion.] In the spirit of compromise, I could accept a "see also list of cryptocurrency symbols". --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:01, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20220916110100","author":"John Maynard Friedman","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220916110100-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220915202600","replies":[]}}-->
Keep them in.
replies: They are not "currencies" because they call themselves so. They are because they are.
Noteworthy currencies (of those 9k) are, well, noteworthy. And no, a ponzi scheme is not a currency definition. -DePiep (talk) 11:52, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20220916115200","author":"DePiep","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-DePiep-20220916115200-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220915202600","replies":["c-DePiep-20220916123900-DePiep-20220916115200"]}}-->
A Big Bytheway: the question "Is crypto a real currency?" should be on a different place, say Talk:Currency. Or promoted widely. DePiep (talk) 12:39, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20220916123900","author":"DePiep","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-DePiep-20220916123900-DePiep-20220916115200","replies":[]}}-->
I didn't realize there was a discussion about this, sorry!
Anyways, my opinion is to only have bitcoin, ethereum, and possibly dogecoin in the cryptocurrency section. They are a well established forms of cryptocurrency, and others are not notable enough to be in the template. Besides, the sources in Cryptocurrency say that cryptocurrency is a currency. Roostery123 (talk) 12:35, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20220916123500","author":"Roostery123","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Roostery123-20220916123500-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220915202600","replies":["c-Drmccreedy-20220916154200-Roostery123-20220916123500"]}}-->
How would you define the criteria for inclusion (notable and well established)? A market cap limit? An age/time since introduction? Usage (number of transactions or size of transaction)? Without an objective criteria it's endless edits to add or remove symbols. DRMcCreedy (talk) 15:42, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20220916154200","author":"Drmccreedy","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Drmccreedy-20220916154200-Roostery123-20220916123500","replies":[]}}-->
CCs with unicode code points only?
I guess my proposal seems unlikely to gain consensus so I suggest we don't waste any more time on it.
So may I revise my proposal? How about limiting the CC line to only those CCs that have a dedicated Unicode code-point? (which is what we are doing with the real conventional currencies). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:18, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20220916151800","author":"John Maynard Friedman","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220916151800-CCs_with_unicode_code_points_only?","replies":["c-Drmccreedy-20220916154200-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220916151800","c-DePiep-20220917082600-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220916151800","c-GR86-20221010202100-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220916151800"]}}-->
I like this criteria. It's straightforward. DRMcCreedy (talk) 15:42, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20220916154200","author":"Drmccreedy","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Drmccreedy-20220916154200-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220916151800","replies":["c-DePiep-20220916155400-Drmccreedy-20220916154200"]}}-->
Oppose. It should be about currency sign, full stop. Not about their reception or acceptation or spread. Think Cifrão, som, ₹ after initial decision.
Subsequent question: why would we need any such criteria? -DePiep (talk) 15:54, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20220916155400","author":"DePiep","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-DePiep-20220916155400-Drmccreedy-20220916154200","replies":["c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220916172200-DePiep-20220916155400"]}}-->
Rats, I forgot about the Cifrão, but it is a clearly notable exception and merits a waiver. (INR has a code-point, I don't follow your point?) So do we clog the template with 100s of makey-uppy or repurposed 'symbols' for marginally notable CCs and thus give them an unwarranted credibility? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:22, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20220916172200","author":"John Maynard Friedman","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220916172200-DePiep-20220916155400","replies":["c-DePiep-20220916231700-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220916172200"]}}-->
₹ after initial decision: after the decision by India State Bank or so, Unicode indeed speed-added (an x.1.0 version IIRC), but it took many years before it was effectuated in the fonts. Anyway, Unicode does not decide what is a (notable) currency. Then, you descrition of the template with "any" sign is hard to imagine. So again, why a criterium? (When answered, the criterium will show itself).
-DePiep (talk) 23:17, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20220916231700","author":"DePiep","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-DePiep-20220916231700-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220916172200","replies":[]}}-->
I think we better first reorganise this navbox in its presentation of the signs. Order by (related) script? By continent? Separate fractions? Add textual info? I can agree that durrent list is too indiscriminately long for nav'ing purposes. I also think that removing signs is not the solution. What inspiration does the lists give us?-DePiep (talk) 08:26, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20220917082600","author":"DePiep","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-DePiep-20220917082600-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220916151800","replies":[]}}-->
Keep:John Maynard Friedman reason for removing this from the template on the basis that Cryptocurrencies are Ponzi schemes - there is a section which discusses Crypto Ponzi schemes (see also Category:Crypto Ponzi schemes) and none of the symbols listed in this box are discussed as ponzis. The template is about "currency symbols" - these cryptocurrencies have valid unicode symbols. I do think there should be a guideline on what cryptocurrencies should be included into this navbox though e.g. if they have an article on Wikipedia or if they have a market cap of over $1bn to ensure only generally notable symbols are included. GR86 (📱) 20:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20221010202100","author":"GR86","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-GR86-20221010202100-John_Maynard_Friedman-20220916151800","replies":["c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20221010230600-GR86-20221010202100","c-DePiep-20221012095500-GR86-20221010202100"]}}-->
see WP:DUCK. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 23:06, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20221010230600","author":"John Maynard Friedman","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20221010230600-GR86-20221010202100","replies":[],"displayName":"\ud835\udd41\ud835\udd44\ud835\udd3d"}}-->
Agree. About the symbols-as-symbols, not a judgement on their currency. Nor a selection by technical status. King Reader expects to find them in here, and rightly so. DePiep (talk) 09:55, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20221012095500","author":"DePiep","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-DePiep-20221012095500-GR86-20221010202100","replies":[]}}-->
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@John Maynard Friedman:[1]: please refrain from wikilawyering or definitionlawyering for this navigation box. WP:LEASTSURPRISE also pertains to missing, but expected stuff. " / / " is a symbol that belongs in here, bluelinked. Now take the Reader Seat and edit from what you'd expect to find. DePiep (talk) 07:07, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20221109070700","author":"DePiep","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-DePiep-20221109070700-Microlawyering_out_of_the_main_picture","replies":["c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20221109090600-DePiep-20221109070700","c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20221109172700-DePiep-20221109070700"]}}-->
To accuse me of wikilawyering is rather extreme. If you were arguing for retention of 円, I might have understood as it an edge case. But £sd is just a notation, the currency symbol was and still is £, it is not historic. The slashes in £a/b/c are just level breaks. If a currency ceased use of decimal subunits, would you consider it appropriate to include decimal point in the historic list? The UK used to use midpoint as a decimal separator: should that be included?
If you feel that strongly about it, I won't pursue the debate but from a UK perspective its inclusion looks rather odd and misinformed. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 09:06, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20221109090600","author":"John Maynard Friedman","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20221109090600-DePiep-20221109070700","replies":[],"displayName":"\ud835\udd41\ud835\udd44\ud835\udd3d"}}-->
BTW, the slash notation is still used in East Africa. See Shilling. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:27, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20221109172700","author":"John Maynard Friedman","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20221109172700-DePiep-20221109070700","replies":["c-DePiep-20221110031700-John_Maynard_Friedman-20221109172700"],"displayName":"\ud835\udd41\ud835\udd44\ud835\udd3d"}}-->
The slash notation is symbolic (unambiguously even, as slash is not a word), and used to write amounts (ie quantities: number × unit). As I wrote, a Reader (me) expected it to be in here, how else could a Reader find it? Buried in pound history? nondecimal pond history? (iow, requiring pre-knowledge to know where to search ... ouch). All this is Reader Minding When Editing, and I am disappointed that you keep finding non-intuitive outside reasonings to conclude that something does not belong in here.
In your 17:27 reply here you are doing the same: repeat your marginal reasons, without digesting the Readers Expectation. And then, concluding with "X is used in E. Africa" without immediately adding that one ... DePiep (talk) 03:17, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20221110031700","author":"DePiep","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-DePiep-20221110031700-John_Maynard_Friedman-20221109172700","replies":["c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20221110163100-DePiep-20221110031700"]}}-->
But slash is still not a currency symbol, any more than a decimal point is. In £xx/yy/zz, it is just a vigesimal separator or a duodecimal separator, just as . (or , and ·) is a decimal separator. In East Africa, the slash is a decimal separator: for example, a price might be given as 2/50 (which means two shillings and 50 cents, with the local currency prefix understood), or even 250/= (which means two hundred and fifty shillings exactly). The slash is not a currency symbol, nor is the equal sign: both are merely the conventional notation. So short of adding a new line to the navbox for decimal separators, I can't see any home for it.
Coming back to your first question, I sympathise with the principle that navboxes exist to help people find stuff, which is why I restored the logogram for the Japanese yen. But for the life of me I can't see why anyone would expect to find £sd here. Maybe I'm too close to it: much as I've already said, from my UK perspective its inclusion looks confused or misinformed. If your perspective differs, go ahead and restore it. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:31, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20221110163100","author":"John Maynard Friedman","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-John_Maynard_Friedman-20221110163100-DePiep-20221110031700","replies":[],"displayName":"\ud835\udd41\ud835\udd44\ud835\udd3d"}}-->
