Template talk:Narcissism

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Problems with this template

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The rules for navigation templates, as listed in Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates, are that ideally they should link to a small, well-defined group of articles on wikipedia.

1. All articles within a template relate to a single, coherent subject. - template fails this
2. The subject of the template should be mentioned in every article. - many article don't mention narcissism
3. The articles should refer to each other, to a reasonable extent. - don't think this is true for this template. The articles and wikionary links don't refer to each other.
4. There should be a Wikipedia article on the subject of the template. - not true. Template links multiple times to the same article e.g. Narcissistic personality disorder and Narcissism. Many links are piped misleadingly.

According to the Reliable sources noticeboard, "The purpose of these templates are for navigation, thus the name navigational templates, meaning to link between wikipedia articles, not pages in external websites, including sistersites such as wiktionary."[1]

This template links to sistersites such as wiktionary. e.g. Arrogance, Bravado, Conceit, Drama queen, Grandstanding, Haughtiness, Hidden agenda, Self-absorbed, Swaggering, Jerk, Swaggering. These do not have wikipedia articles.

It also links to wikipedia articles that don't mention narcissism. e.g. Walter Mitty, Nepotism, Valley girl, Diva, Dorian Gray syndrome, Mr. Toad, Tantrum Empire-building, Metrosexual, Don Juanism, Prima donna, Snob, Valley girl, Messiah complex, Micromanagement, Victory disease etc.

Since this template is in Category: Psychology templates, I propose that it only link to articles in psychology that discuss narcissism to a reasonable degree.

Farrajak (talk) 21:54, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-05-30T21:54:00.000Z","author":"Farrajak","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Farrajak-2013-05-30T21:54:00.000Z-Problems_with_this_template","replies":["c-MartinPoulter-2013-06-03T13:54:00.000Z-Farrajak-2013-05-30T21:54:00.000Z","c-MartinPoulter-2013-06-18T19:02:00.000Z-Farrajak-2013-05-30T21:54:00.000Z","c-MartinPoulter-2013-06-22T10:54:00.000Z-Farrajak-2013-05-30T21:54:00.000Z"]}}-->

Thanks for raising these concerns, which seem to be valid. It's not quite a proper use of a navigational template to have many many links to the same article, or to unrelated articles. I've removed some links but I urge other editors to get involved in tidying up this template. MartinPoulter (talk) 13:54, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-06-03T13:54:00.000Z","author":"MartinPoulter","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-MartinPoulter-2013-06-03T13:54:00.000Z-Farrajak-2013-05-30T21:54:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

User:Penbat, though Farrajak may have been a sock puppet, the problems highlighted with the template are real and bold action needs to be taken to bring it into line with Wikipedia policy and the purpose of a navigational template. Please respond by engaging in the discussion, not using misleadingly-summarised edits to get the template how you want it. MartinPoulter (talk) 19:02, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-06-18T19:02:00.000Z","author":"MartinPoulter","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-MartinPoulter-2013-06-18T19:02:00.000Z-Farrajak-2013-05-30T21:54:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

See also this edit summary from another user. MartinPoulter (talk) 10:54, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-06-22T10:54:00.000Z","author":"MartinPoulter","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-MartinPoulter-2013-06-22T10:54:00.000Z-Farrajak-2013-05-30T21:54:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

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Discussion of multiple templates including this one

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Just created at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Psychology#Review_of_navigational_templates. MartinPoulter (talk) 16:42, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2013-07-27T16:42:00.000Z","author":"MartinPoulter","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-MartinPoulter-2013-07-27T16:42:00.000Z-Discussion_of_multiple_templates_including_this_one","replies":[]}}-->

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Scope is too broad to be useful

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What is the purpose and who is the audience for this directory.

It might be constructive to rethink what the topic is and who this template is targeted to -- and then evaluate the links.

Narcissism is an extremely large topic (like happiness) and this cataloguing covers everything from Narcissus (mythology) to Workplace bullying to Spiritual materialism or Sam Vaknin.

Are people who are searching for Narcissus (mythology) likely to want a link to Workplace bullying.

Are people who are searching for Narcissistic personality disorder likely to want a link to Spiritual materialism or Victory disease or selfies.

How is this much different than: [Category:Narcissism]

So, again, what is the purpose and who is the audience?
72.181.218.181 (talk) 18:10, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-08-14T18:10:00.000Z","author":"72.181.218.181","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-72.181.218.181-2015-08-14T18:10:00.000Z-Scope_is_too_broad_to_be_useful","replies":[]}}-->

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Articles with little useful content

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• Mr. Toad
• Status symbol
• Victory disease

Neither of these articles has any significant content on the topic of Narcissism. The status symbol article has a small amount of text copied from another narcissism article, so there's really no reason to include it here. 2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36 (talk) 09:00, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-10-26T09:00:00.000Z","author":"2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36-2015-10-26T09:00:00.000Z-Articles_with_little_useful_content","replies":["c-2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36-2015-10-26T10:14:00.000Z-2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36-2015-10-26T09:00:00.000Z"]}}-->

These have been restored without discussion. the content at those articles is trivial, or even copied across multiple pages. Overkill. 2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36 (talk) 10:14, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-10-26T10:14:00.000Z","author":"2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36-2015-10-26T10:14:00.000Z-2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36-2015-10-26T09:00:00.000Z","replies":["c-2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:ED6D:9D06:362C:5C7E-2015-10-27T03:35:00.000Z-2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36-2015-10-26T10:14:00.000Z"]}}-->

The "status symbol" issue is also discussed in a thread at Talk:Narcissism#Repeated text. The issue is that the same material exists in four articles, all of them in the template. 2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:ED6D:9D06:362C:5C7E (talk) 03:35, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-10-27T03:35:00.000Z","author":"2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:ED6D:9D06:362C:5C7E","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:ED6D:9D06:362C:5C7E-2015-10-27T03:35:00.000Z-2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36-2015-10-26T10:14:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

The extent of the Mr. Toad material:

Mr. Toad is an anthropomorphic common toad who is the village squire, being the wealthy owner and occupant of Toad Hall. Toad is very rich and a bit of a fop, with a penchant for Harris tweed suits. He owns his own horse, and is able to indulge his impulsive desires, such as punting, house boating and hot air ballooning. Toad is intelligent, creative and resourceful; however, he is also narcissistic, self-centred almost to the point of sociopathy, and completely lacking in even the most basic common sense. His reckless interest in motor cars leads to an episode in which he steals a car and subsequently crashes it. The result is a twenty-year prison sentence, but he escapes, dressed as a washer woman, to regain his family seat of Toad Hall from the clutches of the weasels.

"...he is also narcissistic..." It'd be crazy to include every person or character who has been described as "narcissistic". Especially such an insignificant mention. I am going to restore the deletions. 2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:ED6D:9D06:362C:5C7E (talk) 03:40, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-10-27T03:40:00.000Z","author":"2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:ED6D:9D06:362C:5C7E","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:ED6D:9D06:362C:5C7E-2015-10-27T03:40:00.000Z-Articles_with_little_useful_content","replies":[]}}-->

More:

• Prima donna

Nothing about narcissism there. 2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:ED6D:9D06:362C:5C7E (talk) 07:10, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-10-27T07:10:00.000Z","author":"2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:ED6D:9D06:362C:5C7E","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:ED6D:9D06:362C:5C7E-2015-10-27T07:10:00.000Z-Articles_with_little_useful_content","replies":[]}}-->

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Sam Vaknin

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I'm having trouble understanding why Sam Vaknin is included in the template. While that article does address his work in the field, this is the only individual included in the template. Is he so much more important than any other researchers or theoreticians that his name alone should appear on this template? 2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36 (talk) 09:24, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2015-10-26T09:24:00.000Z","author":"2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-2602:306:C5B4:E3D0:4060:393:581D:3D36-2015-10-26T09:24:00.000Z-Sam_Vaknin","replies":[]}}-->

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Reducing "Link bloat" on this template

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SOME/ALL OF THESE ARTICLES ARE LIKELY LINK BLOAT AND SHOULD BE REVIEWED PER WP:NAVBOX BEFORE INCLUSION IN TEMPLATE.

General articles not specific to narcissism (related to other mental illnesses) or with tangential connection to narcissism.

• Fantasy (psychology) <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• Self-esteem <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• Self-love <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• Spiritual materialism <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• Superficial charm <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• Silent treatment <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• Victim playing <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• Workplace bullying <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism

• Codependency <--- psychology term, not unique or central to narcissism
• Cognitive distortion <--- psychology term, not unique or central to narcissism
• Counterdependency <--- psychology term, not unique or central to narcissism
• Decathexisp <--- psychology term, not unique or central to narcissism
• Denial (Freud) <--- psychology term, not unique or central to narcissism
• Ego ideal <--- psychology term, not unique or central to narcissism
• Emotional blackmail <--- psychology term, not unique or central to narcissism
• Emotional detachment <--- psychology term, not unique or central to narcissism
• Idealization and devaluation <--- psychology term, not unique or central to narcissism
• Love bombing <--- psychology term, not unique or central to narcissism
• Love–hate relationship <--- psychology term, not unique or central to narcissism
• Magical thinking <--- psychology term, not unique or central to narcissism
• Minimisation (psychology) <--- psychology term, not unique or central to narcissism
• Passive-aggressive behavior <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• Perfectionism (psychology) <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• Psychological projection <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• Rationalization (psychology) <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• True self and false self <--- psychology term, not unique or central to narcissism

• Passive-aggressive behavior <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• Perfectionism (psychology) <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism

• Psychological projection <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• Rationalization (psychology) <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• Narcissism of small differences <--- not specific or a primary element of narcissism
• Sex differences in narcissism
• "The Culture of Narcissism" ~ Lasch

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