Template talk:Jack the Ripper

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Crime and Criminal Biography: Serial, mass, and spree killers This template is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. This template is supported by the Serial Killer task force.

This template was considered for deletion on 2020 March 22. The result of the discussion was "Delete the sidebar".

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George Bagster Phillips

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As H Division's police surgeon, would it be appropriate to add George Bagster Phillips to the police section. Alternately might a Doctors and Coroners section be added to include Phillips and the likes of Wynne Edwin Baxter, Thomas Horrocks Openshaw and Thomas Bond Dunarc (talk) 15:27, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-11-14T15:27:00.000Z","author":"Dunarc","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dunarc-2016-11-14T15:27:00.000Z-George_Bagster_Phillips","replies":[]}}-->

Also Roderick Macdonald could go in this section. Dunarc (talk) 17:14, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2016-11-20T17:14:00.000Z","author":"Dunarc","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dunarc-2016-11-20T17:14:00.000Z-George_Bagster_Phillips","replies":[]}}-->

I have added this and think it improves the template, but please feel free to discuss. Dunarc (talk) 19:18, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-01-13T19:18:00.000Z","author":"Dunarc","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dunarc-2017-01-13T19:18:00.000Z-George_Bagster_Phillips","replies":[]}}-->

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Victims

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There is a discussion at Category talk:Jack the Ripper victims which is of relevance to this template. Dunarc (talk) 21:47, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2017-03-06T21:47:00.000Z","author":"Dunarc","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dunarc-2017-03-06T21:47:00.000Z-Victims","replies":[]}}-->

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Link to deleted portal removed

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The Jack the Ripper portal was recently deleted. I've removed the red link from the template. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 12:30, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-04-30T12:30:00.000Z","author":"BlackcurrantTea","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-BlackcurrantTea-2019-04-30T12:30:00.000Z-Link_to_deleted_portal_removed","replies":[]}}-->

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Merge?

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Ongoing discussions between @*Treker, TonyTheTiger, Randy Kryn, and Oknazevad: at Template_talk:Dracula#Split regarding the recent split of {{Dracula}} (which had been stable since its creation in 2006) resulting in a the new {{Adaptations of Dracula}} (created September 21), has led me to question a template that I created a while back. {{Jack the Ripper}} has existed since 2008, but in 2013 I created {{Jack the Ripper media}}. I think this may differ from the Dracula discussion because one template is real world subjects and the other is media presentations of the subject, which to me seems like a logical split. However, in light of the Dracula discussion, I thought I would get opinions.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:23, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-09-29T22:23:00.000Z","author":"TonyTheTiger","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-TonyTheTiger-2019-09-29T22:23:00.000Z-Merge?","replies":["c-Berean_Hunter-2019-09-29T23:03:00.000Z-TonyTheTiger-2019-09-29T22:23:00.000Z","c-DrKay-2019-09-30T15:58:00.000Z-TonyTheTiger-2019-09-29T22:23:00.000Z"]}}-->

If you are suggesting merging the JTR media template with the JTR template then that would be an oppose from me. Keep non-fiction separate from fiction. Dracula is all fiction so they are not analogous.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 23:03, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-09-29T23:03:00.000Z","author":"Berean Hunter","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Berean_Hunter-2019-09-29T23:03:00.000Z-TonyTheTiger-2019-09-29T22:23:00.000Z","replies":["c-TonyTheTiger-2019-09-30T11:52:00.000Z-Berean_Hunter-2019-09-29T23:03:00.000Z"]}}-->

Berean Hunter, it sounds like you have an opinion on the Dracula templates, which would be useful at that discussion.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:52, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-09-30T11:52:00.000Z","author":"TonyTheTiger","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-TonyTheTiger-2019-09-30T11:52:00.000Z-Berean_Hunter-2019-09-29T23:03:00.000Z","replies":["c-Berean_Hunter-2019-09-30T13:08:00.000Z-TonyTheTiger-2019-09-30T11:52:00.000Z"]}}-->

TonyTheTiger, I will have to consider that after looking through any guidance at Wikipedia:WikiProject Templates concerning size and when templates become too cumbersome to use as an effective navigation tool. I have seen discussions in the past but I have to leave in a bit and do not have time at the moment to look through their archives. Do you know of such discussions? Links would be appreciated. I may not be able to reply until tomorrow. Two other editors that are regular contributors to JTR articles are DrKay and Jack1956 and they may be interested in this discussion. It may also be a good idea to advertise this discussion on Talk:Jack the Ripper.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 13:08, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-09-30T13:08:00.000Z","author":"Berean Hunter","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Berean_Hunter-2019-09-30T13:08:00.000Z-TonyTheTiger-2019-09-30T11:52:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

I would prefer to keep them separate. Both templates are large as it is and the current split is the most natural. DrKay (talk) 15:58, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-09-30T15:58:00.000Z","author":"DrKay","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-DrKay-2019-09-30T15:58:00.000Z-TonyTheTiger-2019-09-29T22:23:00.000Z","replies":[]}}-->

Oppose - best to keep them separate Jack1956 (talk) 17:16, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-09-30T17:16:00.000Z","author":"Jack1956","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Jack1956-2019-09-30T17:16:00.000Z-Merge?","replies":[]}}-->

Oppose I think that Saucy Jack has enough media attention (how many films are there?) to easily warrant its own template.Slatersteven (talk) 09:08, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2019-10-01T09:08:00.000Z","author":"Slatersteven","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Slatersteven-2019-10-01T09:08:00.000Z-Merge?","replies":[]}}-->

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Witnesses section

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Noticing that Israel Schwartz and Joseph Lawende have articles, I thought they should be included in the template, so I started a section for witnesses, since both were considered by the police as possible witnesses to events relating to Jack the Ripper murders, and indeed both's notability would seem to rest on the fact they might have seen Jack the Ripper with one of his victims. I also have included George Hutchinson and Charles Allen Lechmere as both were treated by the police as such. I am aware both have now received serious attention from later authors as potential suspects, so appreciate that some might question their inclusion here. However both were classed as witnesses in 1888 (Lechmere - aka Charles Cross - for finding Mary Ann Nichols' body, Hutchison for claiming to see Mary Jane Kelly with a man on the night she was murdered. I would have no problem with this section being reworked or its name altered to something like "possible witnesses" if that is thought more appropriate. Dunarc (talk) 22:53, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-08-03T22:53:00.000Z","author":"Dunarc","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dunarc-2021-08-03T22:53:00.000Z-Witnesses_section","replies":[]}}-->

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Should Martha Tabram et al be included here

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As well as the "Canonical five" should there be a section for the other murder victims associated with the case as it has been suggested they were killed by the same killed, such as Martha Tabram and Emma Elizabeth Smith. Tabram's article notes is "Although not one of the canonical five Ripper victims that historians have broadly acknowledged, she is considered the next most likely candidate." I would note that the "Canonical five" idea is not universally accepted, and indeed investigating officers were divided on the issue. Many went with the five, but Edmund Reid thought there were 9 victims and Thomas Arnold only 4 that committed by the same individual. Walter Dewc considered Smith a Ripper victim. I would also note that it is unlikely that these women's stories would have the level of coverage for them to have Wikipedia articles if it were not for the possible Jack the Ripper connection. Dunarc (talk) 21:04, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-08-13T21:04:00.000Z","author":"Dunarc","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dunarc-2021-08-13T21:04:00.000Z-Should_Martha_Tabram_et_al_be_included_here","replies":[]}}-->

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Locations section

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I have added a locations section for links to the articles about the Streets where the murders were committed and locations closely connected with the crimes. All of these articles are currently in Category:Jack the Ripper, but I thought including them in the template would help improve navigation. Dunarc (talk) 20:00, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"2021-08-15T20:00:00.000Z","author":"Dunarc","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Dunarc-2021-08-15T20:00:00.000Z-Locations_section","replies":[]}}-->