Template talk:Israel–Hamas war infobox

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Remove belligerents unrelated to the conflict between Israel and Hamas specifically

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Allies from other theaters were added because contributors saw the conflict as interrelated with the Israel-Hezbollah conflict, the Red Sea crisis, and the 2024 Iran-Israel conflict. However, as an overarching page at Middle Eastern crisis (2023–present) has now been created for this purpose, I would like to suggest that Israel's allies and Hamas's "Allies in other theaters" be removed from the infobox. I have added a footnote to Israel which has a link to a list of military support given to Israel against Hamas. VoicefulBread66 (talk) 13:16, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241025131600","author":"VoicefulBread66","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-VoicefulBread66-20241025131600-Remove_belligerents_unrelated_to_the_conflict_between_Israel_and_Hamas_specifica","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241030153300-VoicefulBread66-20241025131600","c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104212500-VoicefulBread66-20241025131600"]}}-->

Seems a reasonable idea. To try to make sure they're all captured somewhere...

• Lebanon: Hezbollah, Islamic Group, Amal Movement, Syrian Social Nationalist Party in Lebanon, Islamic Azz Brigades (move all to Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present))
• Yemen: Houthi movement (move to Red Sea crisis)
• Iraq: Islamic Resistance in Iraq (move to Middle Eastern crisis (2023–present)
  • Cited to a single drone attack in the Mediterranean
• Iran: Iran (keep at this article, considering their two direct assaults on Israel in April and October)
• Jordan: Muslim Brotherhood (keep at this article, since the attack was at the Israeli border, and done "in solidarity with Gaza and in support of the resistance")

Thoughts? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 15:33, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241030153300","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241030153300-VoicefulBread66-20241025131600","replies":["c-VoicefulBread66-20241031005600-PhotogenicScientist-20241030153300"]}}-->

Iran's direct assaults are covered under 2024 Israel-Iran conflict, no need to include in the infobox of this article. As for the rest, they are already covered in the infobox of Middle Eastern crisis (2023-present) (albeit without location to avoid cluttering up the infobox too much) and the other articles you linked, so they are already covered elsewhere. As for the Muslim Brotherhood case, I feel like that is better covered in the Middle Eastern crisis article, as while it is in support of the Israel-Hamas war, I wouldn't consider part of the war, only the broader crisis. VoicefulBread66 (talk) 00:56, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241031005600","author":"VoicefulBread66","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-VoicefulBread66-20241031005600-PhotogenicScientist-20241030153300","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241031030000-VoicefulBread66-20241031005600"]}}-->

Considering Iran launched their October strike at Israeli territory and explicitly "in retaliation for Israel's assasination of Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh...", I think it's safe to say they're a belligerent ally of Hamas in this war. In any case, the "Israel-Hamas war" is plainly the foundation of the Middle East crisis, so I don't see too much harm in having belligerent nations listed as combatants at this article in addition to others, especially if they've participated directly in this theater.

The same goes for the Jordanian allies. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 03:00, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241031030000","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241031030000-VoicefulBread66-20241031005600","replies":[]}}-->

I agree that Israel's allies and Hamas's "Allies in other theaters" should be removed from the infobox at least to some extent. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:25, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104212500","author":"Horse Eye's Back","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104212500-VoicefulBread66-20241025131600","replies":[]}}-->

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Yemen and Iran casualties

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Should we add casualties of the Yemen and Iran attacks on Israel and vice versa.

19 Iranian dead, 73 Yemen dead and 2 Israel soldiers and 1 Israeli civilian Mercenary2k (talk) 17:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241101175100","author":"Mercenary2k","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Mercenary2k-20241101175100-Yemen_and_Iran_casualties","replies":[]}}-->

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RfC: Should the US and UK be added as allies to Israel in the infobox?

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Should the US and UK be added as allies in other theaters to Israel in the infobox?

1. Yes for US
2. Yes for US and UK
3. No for both

RFCBefore

Smallangryplanet (talk) 13:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104132100","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104132100-RfC:_Should_the_US_and_UK_be_added_as_allies_to_Israel_in_the_infobox?","replies":["c-Genabab-20241208213900-Smallangryplanet-20241104132100"]}}-->

Well, it's been well over a month. Tallying up the votes I can see

Votes for just Option 1: 4

Votes for just Option 2: 5

Votes for Option 1 and/or 2: 11

Votes for Option 3:6

We seem to have reached a consensus here. Option 3 lost. Option 1 and 2 won. I'll make the edit thusly assuming no objections? @Smallangryplanet Option 3: r

r Genabab (talk) 21:39, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241208213900","author":"Genabab","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Genabab-20241208213900-Smallangryplanet-20241104132100","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241209134100-Genabab-20241208213900"]}}-->

@Genabab Thank you for the wrap up! Feel free to make the edit, much appreciated. Smallangryplanet (talk) 13:41, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241209134100","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241209134100-Genabab-20241208213900","replies":[]}}-->

Survey

Option 1 Given the United States support for Israel in the Israel–Hamas war, RS such as this and US blocking of UN ceasefire resolutions, the US is proactively helping its ally to pursue the war, its assistance to Israel is considerably more valuable than Iranian assistance to Hamas. Selfstudier (talk) 14:05, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104140500","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241104140500-Survey","replies":[]}}-->

Option 2 for the reasons I list in the Discussion section below. I would also be okay with Option 1. Smallangryplanet (talk) 14:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104142400","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104142400-Survey","replies":[]}}-->

Option 2; as I and others documented, there are numerous examples of US and UK military involvement in several theaters of the war. Both countries self-identify as the ally of Israel. Israel's major arms suppliers, I have in mind Germany here, should be included somehow as well. While I suppose the previous RFC on the inclusion of supporting belligerents in infoboxes in general says we shouldn't, there is a clear majority in the RFCBefore in favor of including supporting belligerents on this page in particular. Unbandito (talk) 14:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104145000","author":"Unbandito","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Unbandito-20241104145000-Survey","replies":[]}}-->

Option 1 The US support has been pretty definite without letup in every way ever since Biden gave his speech after October 7. The UK support has been far less outspoken and diffident and it hasn't given its usual full support to the US. NadVolum (talk) 16:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC) Removing my !vote. I don't think much of the allies in other theatres section. A list of associated theatres would be as much as I'd want. NadVolum (talk) 19:25, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104163900","author":"NadVolum","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-NadVolum-20241104163900-Survey","replies":[]}}-->

Option 1 but okay with Option 2. Bitspectator ⛩️ 16:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104165000","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241104165000-Survey","replies":[]}}-->

Option 1 Yes for America. Alongside their activity in the Red sea and iraq, their shooting down of missiles from iran, their usage of drones in Gaza, what really brings them up is that 100 American soldiers have been sent to Israel in what rs' are calling combat roles. They are 100% combatants at this point and it makes complete sense to list them as such. Genabab (talk) 16:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104165500","author":"Genabab","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Genabab-20241104165500-Survey","replies":[]}}-->

Option 2 per United States support for Israel in the Israel–Hamas war and United Kingdom support for Israel in the Israel–Hamas war. Skitash (talk) 17:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104170000","author":"Skitash","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Skitash-20241104170000-Survey","replies":[]}}-->

Option 3 There have been numerous sub-threads above probing various reasons to include the US as a combatant in the infobox which have ended without compelling reasons to do so. To summarize a few, for anyone new to this talk page:

• There is prior consensus to deprecate the inclusion of ‘Supporting’ countries as allies in this infobox, where the nature of the support is things like supplying weapons or providing intel.

• One definition of “combatant” considered, per the Red Cross, is that combatants are “members of the armed forces of a party. The main feature of their status is that they have the right to directly participate in hostilities.”

• The US has initiated combat action only against the Houthis in Yemen, which is covered at our article for the Red Sea crisis, where the US is appropriately listed as an ally

• The US’ defense of Israel in relation to the Gaza theater, including the manning of a THAAD battery, and the shooting down of missiles from Iran, isn’t what I would consider being combative or "belligerent," which is the heading under which this proposal would add these 2 countries.
  • This is backed up in RS, who cover the deployment of the THAAD without mention of combat: [1] [2] [3]

Why we're putting this up to a vote after already hearing the opinions of 15 or so editors above, I'm not quite sure. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104170300","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241104170300-Survey","replies":["c-Genabab-20241104170700-PhotogenicScientist-20241104170300","c-Selfstudier-20241104170800-PhotogenicScientist-20241104170300"]}}-->

This neglects to mention:

1. The nature of support goes deeper than "supplying weapons" and "providing intel" into combat operations

2. America has also imitated combat against Islamic Militias in Iraq and against Iran.

3. None of the listed sources contradict the view of the 100 deployed soldiers being in combat, and other sources like this do say that America is in combat: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/15/israel-iran-war-hezbollah-lebanon-latest-news1/ Genabab (talk) 17:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104170700","author":"Genabab","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Genabab-20241104170700-PhotogenicScientist-20241104170300","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171400-Genabab-20241104170700"]}}-->

combat operations in Gaza? Please provide a source.

America has also initiated(?) combat against Islamic Militias in Iraq and against Iran Yes, they've been doing that since about 2002. Do you have a source that links the relevance of any combat action to this war against Hamas? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104171400","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171400-Genabab-20241104170700","replies":["c-Genabab-20241104172800-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171400"]}}-->

No, not in Gaza, as I make clear in the sentence right after.

> Yes, they've been doing that since about 2002.

Attacks on Israel in support of Palestine by Iraqi militants have been well-documented as being part of the wider spill over of the Israel-Hamas War. Fundamentally connecting the two.

Doubly so for Iran. Genabab (talk) 17:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104172800","author":"Genabab","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Genabab-20241104172800-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171400","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241104173300-Genabab-20241104172800"]}}-->

And for the spillover of the war, we have Middle Eastern crisis (2023–present).

But you and I have already hashed this out above, haven't we? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104173300","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241104173300-Genabab-20241104172800","replies":["c-Genabab-20241105083800-PhotogenicScientist-20241104173300"]}}-->

I wouldn't say so, as I don't think any valid argument has been raised in response to those points @PhotogenicScientist Genabab (talk) 08:38, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241105083800","author":"Genabab","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Genabab-20241105083800-PhotogenicScientist-20241104173300","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241105145300-Genabab-20241105083800"]}}-->

If you're talking about the US attacking Iran, or militias in Iraq, I don't think any RS have been provided to support inclusion. Nor do I find any mention of such attacks at Israel–Hamas_war#Iraq or Israel–Hamas_war#Iran. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 14:53, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241105145300","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241105145300-Genabab-20241105083800","replies":["c-Genabab-20241106101400-PhotogenicScientist-20241105145300"]}}-->

@PhotogenicScientist

Attacks on U.S. bases in Iraq, Jordan, and Syria during the Israel–Hamas war: Are you seriously asserting that America never responded to these attacks, and that these attacks never happened

And America did shoot down Iranian missiles. You know that too... Genabab (talk) 10:14, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106101400","author":"Genabab","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Genabab-20241106101400-PhotogenicScientist-20241105145300","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106162900-Genabab-20241106101400"]}}-->

Hey look, an article entirely about those attacks on the US, and their responses to those attacks. Thanks for providing a source here to discuss. And would you look at that, the US is appropriately listed as a belligerent in that conflict, at that article. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 16:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106162900","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106162900-Genabab-20241106101400","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241106164800-PhotogenicScientist-20241106162900"]}}-->

October 2024 Iranian strikes against Israel makes it clear that The IDF reported intercepting "a large number" of missiles, while Pentagon spokesperson Patrick S. Ryder confirmed that United States Navy destroyers launched about a dozen interceptors against Iranian missiles. National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan mentioned that other U.S. "partners" also helped thwart the attack, but did not specify who they were. Jordan stated that its air defenses intercepted missiles and drones over Jordanian airspace during the incident. It cites this article (though there's plentyof other examples). If we're happy to describe the US as a belligerent in the other article, shall I add an option 4 here to likewise describe the US as a belligerent in this infobox? (Like the infobox does, sort of, for Iran?) Smallangryplanet (talk) 16:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106164800","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241106164800-PhotogenicScientist-20241106162900","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106165900-Smallangryplanet-20241106164800"]}}-->

As I've said before, I don't see the use of defensive missile systems in defense of an ally as "belligerent" combat action. In the other article, the belligerence in question is things like "attacking weapon stored used by Iran-backed militias" or "attacking the Islamic Resistance group pre-emptively as they plan an attack." Rather different actions than defensively shooting down incoming missiles. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 16:59, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106165900","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":11,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106165900-Smallangryplanet-20241106164800","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241106170300-PhotogenicScientist-20241106165900","c-Smallangryplanet-20241106170900-PhotogenicScientist-20241106165900"]}}-->

defensively shooting down incoming missiles some soldiers do nothing else during a war. Does that make them irrelevant? M.Bitton (talk) 17:03, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106170300","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":12,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241106170300-PhotogenicScientist-20241106165900","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106223000-M.Bitton-20241106170300"]}}-->

Not irrelevant. But not belligerents. Besides, there's a distinction between a "combatant" nation and individuals considered "combatants." PhotogenicScientist (talk) 22:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106223000","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":13,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106223000-M.Bitton-20241106170300","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241106223600-PhotogenicScientist-20241106223000"]}}-->

Of course they are belligerents. What's that got to do with this situation? M.Bitton (talk) 22:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106223600","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":14,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241106223600-PhotogenicScientist-20241106223000","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106223700-M.Bitton-20241106223600"]}}-->

I don't know - you're the one who asked. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 22:37, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106223700","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":15,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106223700-M.Bitton-20241106223600","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241106224000-PhotogenicScientist-20241106223700"]}}-->

I don't play silly games. M.Bitton (talk) 22:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106224000","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":16,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241106224000-PhotogenicScientist-20241106223700","replies":[]}}-->

It's not a question of whether you personally see the use of defensive missile systems in defense of an ally as "belligerent" combat action. We're on wikipedia, not PhotogenicScientst's blog. WP:NPOV is not just a WP:BLUDGEON some editors get to use to enforce a particular position. It means the reverse, which is that we try to represent fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. In this case there is more than ample evidence, backed up by RS, that the US is participating in the conflict using lethal weaponry on behalf of an ally, making them at the very least eligible to be described as an ally in this infobox. Smallangryplanet (talk) 17:09, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106170900","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":12,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241106170900-PhotogenicScientist-20241106165900","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106223200-Smallangryplanet-20241106170900"]}}-->

lethal weaponry "Lethal" to missiles?

Or, where is the evidence that the belligerence in the Red Sea crisis is "on behalf of an ally?" As opposed to, you know, in response to the shooting of missiles at international shipping vessels? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 22:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106223200","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":13,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106223200-Smallangryplanet-20241106170900","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241106223900-PhotogenicScientist-20241106223200"]}}-->

The moment you take a side and start using lethal weapons, you are a belligerent. End of. M.Bitton (talk) 22:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106223900","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":14,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241106223900-PhotogenicScientist-20241106223200","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106224200-M.Bitton-20241106223900"]}}-->

The only place lethal weaponry has been used is in the Red Sea crisis. Part of the overall Middle Eastern crisis (2023–present). Not really part of this war between Israel and Hamas. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 22:42, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106224200","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":15,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106224200-M.Bitton-20241106223900","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241106224500-PhotogenicScientist-20241106224200"]}}-->

What did they use to shoot down the missiles? M.Bitton (talk) 22:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106224500","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":16,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241106224500-PhotogenicScientist-20241106224200","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106225200-M.Bitton-20241106224500"]}}-->

I've made perfectly clear that I believe the use of defensive missiles is not a belligerent action - an opinion that is not unique to myself, by the way. Why you feel the need to continue to WP:BADGER me with a semantical argument is beyond me. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 22:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106225200","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":17,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106225200-M.Bitton-20241106224500","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241106230000-PhotogenicScientist-20241106225200"]}}-->

Your position is clear, but that doesn't mean that it makes sense (even if repeated ad nauseam).

the use of defensive missiles is not a belligerent action it most certainly is (especially when used to defend a friend on the side of the planet, against a common enemy to boot). M.Bitton (talk) 23:00, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106230000","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":18,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241106230000-PhotogenicScientist-20241106225200","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241107232100-M.Bitton-20241106230000"]}}-->

A state engaging in either self- or collective-defensive has a legal right to this use of force under International Humanitarian Law. [4] Also under IHL, individuals engaging in self-defense are not considered to be "participating in hostilities." [5] So this feeling that parties engaging in defense aren't considered "combatants" is not unique to myself. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 23:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107232100","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":19,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241107232100-M.Bitton-20241106230000","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241107232900-PhotogenicScientist-20241107232100","c-Unbandito-20241107233500-PhotogenicScientist-20241107232100"]}}-->

Are you referring to the Palestinians? M.Bitton (talk) 23:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107232900","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":20,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241107232900-PhotogenicScientist-20241107232100","replies":[]}}-->

The article you cite here is very clear in its abstract that it's referring to whether individuals and populations are considered legitimate military targets under IHL. It's making a legal rather than an empirical distinction and does not support the exclusion of the US or UK as belligerents. Unbandito (talk) 23:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107233500","author":"Unbandito","type":"comment","level":20,"id":"c-Unbandito-20241107233500-PhotogenicScientist-20241107232100","replies":[]}}-->

Doesn't say combatant, says ally. Seems pretty clear that US is Israel's ally, right? Selfstudier (talk) 17:08, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104170800","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241104170800-PhotogenicScientist-20241104170300","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171100-Selfstudier-20241104170800"]}}-->

You and I have hashed this out above. You don't get to append all of that with a truncated reply at an RFC. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104171100","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171100-Selfstudier-20241104170800","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241104171600-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171100"]}}-->

Where? Selfstudier (talk) 17:16, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104171600","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241104171600-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171100","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241104172800-Selfstudier-20241104171600"]}}-->

My apologies - I was confusing this multi-thread discussion with another multi-thread you and I have had over war casualty statistics.

The proposal as actioned would put the US and UK under the heading "Belligerents", in the parameter "combatant2." It's not a simple question of "are these 2 countries allies of Israel?" PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104172800","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241104172800-Selfstudier-20241104171600","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241104173200-PhotogenicScientist-20241104172800"]}}-->

The belligerents are Hamas and Israel, the lists say allies, no matter what the parameter is called. Selfstudier (talk) 17:32, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104173200","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241104173200-PhotogenicScientist-20241104172800","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241104173500-Selfstudier-20241104173200"]}}-->

The subheading of "ally" under the heading of "belligerents" is very obviously meant to be read as "belligerent allies." The listing of supporting countries with which combatants have military alliances is, as I've said, deprecated. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104173500","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241104173500-Selfstudier-20241104173200","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241104174200-PhotogenicScientist-20241104173500"]}}-->

I don't see that as very obvious at all. And the lists are already there but only on one side. Selfstudier (talk) 17:42, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104174200","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241104174200-PhotogenicScientist-20241104173500","replies":[]}}-->

+Option 3 per PhotogenicScientist. And could discussion go under "Discussion". Gog the Mild (talk) 17:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104174000","author":"Gog the Mild","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Gog_the_Mild-20241104174000-Survey","replies":["c-Gog_the_Mild-20241104193700-Gog_the_Mild-20241104174000"]}}-->

"Allies in other theaters" is not included in the Template:Infobox military conflict parameters and I consider adding it to any article a bad idea, more likely to confuse a casual reader (remember them) than enlighten. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:37, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104193700","author":"Gog the Mild","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Gog_the_Mild-20241104193700-Gog_the_Mild-20241104174000","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241104195300-Gog_the_Mild-20241104193700"]}}-->

Should I add an Option 4: Remove the "Allies in other theaters" box from Hamas instead? My personal opinion is I disagree with the consensus that the US is not a combatant and does not belong in that section (which is in the parameters), but I think the "allies in..." box is a decent compromise. If we do not make any other changes and leave the infobox as is, then it's a clear NPOV violation. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104195300","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104195300-Gog_the_Mild-20241104193700","replies":[]}}-->

That discussion is already happening elsewhere on the page and is leaning towards removing the "Allies in other theaters" box from the Hamas side (again its an oxymoron crafted by someone who lacked the competence to do so, it doesn't make sense).

Option 1 or 2 - Neither the US nor UK have engaged in combat in the Israel–Hamas war. All combat operations so far have been part of the other conflicts in the region, most notably the 2024 Iran–Israel conflict. Therefore, it would be more appropriate to list the US and maybe the UK as "Allies in other theaters:" similar to Iran. - ZLEA _T\^C 17:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104174300","author":"ZLEA","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-ZLEA-20241104174300-Survey","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241104174600-ZLEA-20241104174300"]}}-->

I think that is what is being proposed? Isn't it? Selfstudier (talk) 17:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104174600","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241104174600-ZLEA-20241104174300","replies":["c-ZLEA-20241104175100-Selfstudier-20241104174600"]}}-->

The RfC wording is added as allies to Israel, which is not the same as "allies in other theaters". If that's what is being proposed, then it should be made more clear. - ZLEA _T\^C 17:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104175100","author":"ZLEA","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-ZLEA-20241104175100-Selfstudier-20241104174600","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241104175600-ZLEA-20241104175100"]}}-->

Hmm, @Smallangryplanet: Like Iran, right? Selfstudier (talk) 17:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104175600","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241104175600-ZLEA-20241104175100","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241104190800-Selfstudier-20241104175600"]}}-->

@ZLEA @Selfstudier yes, that was always the intent, my apologies, I've updated the RfC text. If I update the title of the RFC will that break listing elsewhere on the site? Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:08, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104190800","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104190800-Selfstudier-20241104175600","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241104191400-Smallangryplanet-20241104190800"]}}-->

That's OK as long as the text is clear, then it should be fine. Selfstudier (talk) 19:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104191400","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241104191400-Smallangryplanet-20241104190800","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241104191700-Selfstudier-20241104191400"]}}-->

Righto. Thanks! Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104191700","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104191700-Selfstudier-20241104191400","replies":[]}}-->

Bad RfC, nobody actually seems to know what "allies in other theaters" means (and it was changed to that from just "allies" half way through thr proscess)... Probably because the term is an oxymoron... It genuinly doesn't make sense and is not a term that I can find used in this context anywhere in military history or international relations. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:09, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241105160900","author":"Horse Eye's Back","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241105160900-Survey","replies":[]}}-->

Option 1 or 2 As I have explained in detail in the discussion preceding the RfC, both the US and UK meet the four criteria for being counted among the allies of Israel in the infobox, namely 1) Weapons supplies, 2) Funding, 3) Intelligence assistance, 4) Direct military involvement.

The US and UK have been actively involved in combat on behalf of Israel, bombing targets in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, and also participating in the shooting down of Iranian and other missiles.

I asked these questions to PhotogenicScientist and they did not answer, but I will pose them again so others can see that it is patently obvious that the US and UK ought to be considered as allies of Israel:

The US meets the first three conditions for Ukraine as of now, but not the fourth, even though it comes very close, with RS reporting that US intelligence and military is actively involved guiding Ukrainian missiles and providing strike coordinates. But it's not yet over that line.

When US military personnel start shooting down Russian missiles, and then send air-defenses to Ukraine with US personnel with the explicit mission to shoot them down, will that pass the threshold for you and will you consider them to be a combatant in the war?

Would Israel or the United States consider that to be case if let's say Turkey started shooting down Israeli missiles over Lebanon, and then moved anti-air batteries to Lebanon with Turkish personnel with the mission of shooting them down while also providing military, funding and intelligence support to Hamas and Hezbollah?

I don't think it is at all controversial that Turkey would then be considered an active combatant in the war.Raskolnikov.Rev (talk) 23:45, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241105234500","author":"Raskolnikov.Rev","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Raskolnikov.Rev-20241105234500-Survey","replies":[]}}-->

Mention the US Its personnel officially engaged in combat. Whether this role remains as support or beyond that can be discussed further. Senorangel (talk) 04:54, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106045400","author":"Senorangel","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Senorangel-20241106045400-Survey","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106050300-Senorangel-20241106045400"]}}-->

What combat are you referring to? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 05:03, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106050300","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241106050300-Senorangel-20241106045400","replies":["c-Senorangel-20241109035200-PhotogenicScientist-20241106050300"]}}-->

I might have been looking at a different page that included additional information about the U.S. and Iran. Senorangel (talk) 03:52, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241109035200","author":"Senorangel","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Senorangel-20241109035200-PhotogenicScientist-20241106050300","replies":[]}}-->

Option 3 Which theaters are there besides the Middle East? Alliances are often tricky. The term is also used informally, but it also refers to a relationship determined by a contractral agreement. For example, every NATO member is a US ally, but not every NATO member is an ally of the US in a specific conflict. The main thing here is that ally can be confused with co-belligerent. Is the US a belligerent in the Israel-Hamas war? Not is the US allied with Israel and engage in other conflicts in the region. "Allies in other theatres" is confusing. Tinynanorobots (talk) 12:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106123000","author":"Tinynanorobots","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Tinynanorobots-20241106123000-Survey","replies":[]}}-->

Option 2 per Unbandito and others, as well as the previous discussions. M.Bitton (talk) 23:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241106232900","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241106232900-Survey","replies":[]}}-->

Option 3 due to an extensive and controversial edit. Achmad Rachmani (talk) 23:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241109231800","author":"Achmad Rachmani","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Achmad_Rachmani-20241109231800-Survey","replies":[]}}-->

Option 2 - I argued about the US involvement last month. The extensive previous (and ongoing) discussions, plus Skitash wlinks, push me to support option 2 instead of 1 (although I would be fine with either). - Ïvana (talk) 00:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241114000200","author":"\u00cfvana","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-\u00cfvana-20241114000200-Survey","replies":["c-\u00cfvana-20241121005500-\u00cfvana-20241114000200","c-Avgeekamfot-20241122212700-\u00cfvana-20241114000200"]}}-->

This recent report by AJ gives more insight into the US and UK level of involvement. - Ïvana (talk) 00:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241121005500","author":"\u00cfvana","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-\u00cfvana-20241121005500-\u00cfvana-20241114000200","replies":[]}}-->

• Option 3The United States sending 100 soldiers to man a defensive system does not make it a "belligerent". Neither is the UK. Avgeekamfot (talk) 21:27, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241122212700","author":"Avgeekamfot","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Avgeekamfot-20241122212700-\u00cfvana-20241114000200","replies":[]}}-->

Option 1 Add US as cobelligerent per source given by editor Unbandito in the discussion section, Gilbert Achcar, writing for Le Monde Diplomatique, names the United States as a "cobelligerent" of Israel in the Gaza War, and gives a detailed justification for this classification, explaining how US military actions impacted the outcome of the war in the Gaza theater and how US policy in this war differs from its stance toward all previous Israeli wars. [6] Selfstudier (talk) 13:04, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241127130400","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241127130400-Survey","replies":[]}}-->

Option 3 (caveat).

• The only point that we seem to be discussing is if "direct military involvement" has been reached here.
• A main point of contention is whether actions outside of the area consisting of what is currently Israel and Palestine would count as a contribution to the Israel-Hamas war, or to another conflict.
• Existing wikipedia practice is to list related conflicts as separate albeit interlinked conflicts, as seen in Middle Eastern crisis (2023–present), the Red Sea crisis, the 2024 Iran–Israel conflict, and the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon. None of these listed articles say the conflicts are "part of" or "a theater" of this conflict. All refer to it as "spillover".

Therefore, US and UK contributions to any of these four conflicts should go under their pages, and not spill back over into this war unless they also clearly contribute to this conflict. Which leads me to the 100 US troops in Israel. Are they to be classed as part of the Iran-Israel conflict and the Israel-Hamas war, or just the former. I would say that until they actually shoot a Hamas rocket down, they should be only classed as the former. The "cause" of the deployment was Iranian rockets, and they are there (according to the US) to deter Iran. Until they shoot down a Hamas rocket (which I'm not sure any RS has said, I may be wrong), I don't think there's any other source claiming they're there to fight Hamas.

However, I would caveat that there seems to be no existing consensus on whether my third point is what the community wishes to depict. It is possible that is the outcome of this RFC, that contributions to any conflict "spilt over" from the Israel-Hamas war "spill back" into Israel-Hamas. If that is the "real" RFC at hand, then I would likely lean to Option 1 or 2. JustAnotherEditHere (talk) 06:21, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241128062100","author":"JustAnotherEditHere","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-JustAnotherEditHere-20241128062100-Survey","replies":[]}}-->

Discussion

 Question: has this been discussed anywhere? M.Bitton (talk) 13:48, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104134800","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241104134800-Discussion","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241104142000-M.Bitton-20241104134800"]}}-->

At length with no conclusion, so I figured it was time to throw this open to an RfC. Smallangryplanet (talk) 14:20, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104142000","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104142000-M.Bitton-20241104134800","replies":[]}}-->

 Comment: As many of us have pointed out - the US is actively involved in combat operations^[1], it has materiel^[2], naval assets nearby and troops on the ground^[3]. The UK has intelligence assets regularly patrolling the skies^[4] and flying defensive missions^[5] over the country. As @Unbandito, @XavierGreen and others have pointed out, we already consider countries that are far less materially involved to be allies of/members of the Axis of Resistance. It would be WP:UNDUE to not also include the US and UK as allies of Israel here. Smallangryplanet (talk) 14:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104142300","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104142300-Discussion","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241104162200-Smallangryplanet-20241104142300","c-Bitspectator-20241104161600-Smallangryplanet-20241104142300"]}}-->

The UK level of assistance is pretty small beer, minimal arms supply, some intel overflights, bit of diplo support behind the US but not really anything to write home about. Selfstudier (talk) 16:22, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104162200","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241104162200-Smallangryplanet-20241104142300","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241104164200-Selfstudier-20241104162200"]}}-->

They're doing a lot of covert stuff as well as participating in Operation Prosperity Guardian and they seem to be providing air defence for Israel as well, so I think there's a enough there to classify them as participating even if they aren't as vocal about it as the US. If that's not sufficient for inclusion then I'm fine with Option 1 as well. Smallangryplanet (talk) 16:42, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104164200","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104164200-Selfstudier-20241104162200","replies":["c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104175200-Smallangryplanet-20241104164200"]}}-->

I don't like that you've gone from talking about them being allies to them being participants... Can you confirm that you aren't trying to backdoor them in as combatants when we have consensus against that? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104175200","author":"Horse Eye's Back","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104175200-Smallangryplanet-20241104164200","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241104191000-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104175200","c-Unbandito-20241104205700-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104175200"]}}-->

@Horse Eye's Back "Allies in other theaters" (subject to change as RS warrant), but, yes, can confirm Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:10, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104191000","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104191000-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104175200","replies":["c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104191700-Smallangryplanet-20241104191000"]}}-->

Under this analysis are you considering Operation Prosperity Guardian etc as fronts of the Israel–Hamas war? If not what does theater mean here? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104191700","author":"Horse Eye's Back","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104191700-Smallangryplanet-20241104191000","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241104191800-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104191700"]}}-->

Yes, similar to how in the current version of the box Yemen, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, and Jordan are all listed. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104191800","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104191800-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104191700","replies":["c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104192300-Smallangryplanet-20241104191800"]}}-->

Those are not fronts or theaters of the Israel–Hamas war. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104192300","author":"Horse Eye's Back","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104192300-Smallangryplanet-20241104191800","replies":[]}}-->

Where are you seeing consensus against? The majority of editors supported inclusion in the RFCBefore. Unbandito (talk) 20:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104205700","author":"Unbandito","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Unbandito-20241104205700-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104175200","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241104205900-Unbandito-20241104205700"]}}-->

I think they're referring to consensus that these countries aren't combatants - I disagree, but I will bow to consensus and mirror the existing "Allies in other theaters" section here as well. Smallangryplanet (talk) 20:59, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104205900","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104205900-Unbandito-20241104205700","replies":[]}}-->

Are the US and UK the only countries this applies to? Bitspectator ⛩️ 16:16, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104161600","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241104161600-Smallangryplanet-20241104142300","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241104164500-Bitspectator-20241104161600"]}}-->

@Bitspectator Not necessarily. There has been some discussion of other countries' involvement and, to be frank, I do think we should include them as well, but then I suspect the RFC will get bogged down in the weeds forever and ever so I wanted to stick to the main couple of countries. Smallangryplanet (talk) 16:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104164500","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104164500-Bitspectator-20241104161600","replies":[]}}-->

I dearly hope the closer of this RFC considers not only the votes in this discussion, but also the weight of arguments presented at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#Should_the_U.S._be_considered_a_combatant_in_the_Israel-Hamas_war,_in_the_infobox?, Talk:Israel–Hamas_war#Add_America_to_Israeli_Allies, and the various other threads at this talk page. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:10, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104171000","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171000-Discussion","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241104171400-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171000","c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104175200-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171000","c-Smallangryplanet-20241104191500-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171000"]}}-->

Those are RFCbefore, can add them up top if desired. Combatant != Ally. Selfstudier (talk) 17:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104171400","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241104171400-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171000","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171500-Selfstudier-20241104171400"]}}-->

And the parameter in the infobox says "combatant". And listing military "allies" providing support only is deprecated. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:15, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104171500","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171500-Selfstudier-20241104171400","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241104172000-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171500"]}}-->

We can do the proposed here if there is consensus in formal discussion. Selfstudier (talk) 17:20, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104172000","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241104172000-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171500","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241105150700-Selfstudier-20241104172000"]}}-->

And if the people who've already opined on the issue don't come back to restate their opinion in this "formal discussion", then what? We discard their input, and look only at the majority of votes in this one thread? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 15:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241105150700","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241105150700-Selfstudier-20241104172000","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241105151000-PhotogenicScientist-20241105150700"]}}-->

This is an RFC and a higher level of consensus than informal discussion. Selfstudier (talk) 15:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241105151000","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241105151000-PhotogenicScientist-20241105150700","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241105163700-Selfstudier-20241105151000"]}}-->

So then yes, discard previously-offered opinions if they're not presented as votes here? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 16:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241105163700","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241105163700-Selfstudier-20241105151000","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241105163900-PhotogenicScientist-20241105163700"]}}-->

This is an RFC, anyone can participate. Please stop clogging up the discussion with irrelevancies. Selfstudier (talk) 16:39, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241105163900","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241105163900-PhotogenicScientist-20241105163700","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241105164800-Selfstudier-20241105163900"]}}-->

Yet people may not participate again, for a variety of reasons - they don't log on to see the new discussion, they don't watch this page or miss the notification on other pages, they don't want to spend their time re-iterating themselves... PhotogenicScientist (talk) 16:48, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241105164800","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241105164800-Selfstudier-20241105163900","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241105165000-PhotogenicScientist-20241105164800"]}}-->

WP:BLUDGEON Selfstudier (talk) 16:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241105165000","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241105165000-PhotogenicScientist-20241105164800","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241105173200-Selfstudier-20241105165000"]}}-->

Cool. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241105173200","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":11,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241105173200-Selfstudier-20241105165000","replies":[]}}-->

• What would this addition look like? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104175200","author":"Horse Eye's Back","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104175200-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171000","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241104191600-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104175200"]}}-->

  AFAIK mostly the same as the Allies in other theaters: collapsable section currently under Hamas in the "Belligerents" portion of the box, just with the US or US and UK instead of Lebanon, Yemen, etc. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:16, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104191600","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104191600-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104175200","replies":["c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104192200-Smallangryplanet-20241104191600"]}}-->

  I see only weak support for having that section be there, it doesn't actually appear to have consenus. It also doesn't make sense, thats not what theater means... Those are not theaters of the Israel–Hamas war. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:22, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104192200","author":"Horse Eye's Back","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104192200-Smallangryplanet-20241104191600","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241104192600-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104192200"]}}-->

  That's why it would be "allies in other theaters", surely? Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104192600","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104192600-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104192200","replies":["c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104193900-Smallangryplanet-20241104192600"]}}-->

  Allies in what other theaters of the Israel–Hamas war? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104193900","author":"Horse Eye's Back","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104193900-Smallangryplanet-20241104192600","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241104194300-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104193900"]}}-->

  Yemen, at the very least. (The IDF has participated in attacks on Yemen as well.) But also the...main Israel/Hamas one because the US has been very vocal about participating in combat operations - knocking down rockets etc. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104194300","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104194300-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104193900","replies":["c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104195300-Smallangryplanet-20241104194300"]}}-->

  What is this main/other theater distinction then? If those are theaters of this war then those aren't allies those are combatants. The whole concept of "allies in other theaters" is an oxymoron as presented. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104195300","author":"Horse Eye's Back","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104195300-Smallangryplanet-20241104194300","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241104195800-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104195300"]}}-->

  For some reason we have consensus in RFCBefore that they are not combatants, so we end up in this bizarre situation where the only way we can talk about the US/UK/etc being present at all is by calling them "Allies in other theaters." I am merely the messenger here. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104195800","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104195800-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104195300","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241104200500-Smallangryplanet-20241104195800","c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104212300-Smallangryplanet-20241104195800"]}}-->

  For me, however it ends up being done, US is an ally of Israel, like Iran is an ally of Hamas. Selfstudier (talk) 20:05, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104200500","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241104200500-Smallangryplanet-20241104195800","replies":[]}}-->

  I literally asked you "Can you confirm that you aren't trying to backdoor them in as combatants when we have consensus against that?" and you confirmed that you were not (at I least I though you did)... You now appear to be saying that you are using the bespoke phrase as a backdoor to circumvent consensus. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104212300","author":"Horse Eye's Back","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104212300-Smallangryplanet-20241104195800","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241104222500-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104212300"]}}-->

  No, I am very clearly saying that because we have decided to not call them combatants, we settled on a term that was acceptable to most editors. I am not really sure how I could use the term we have consensus on to subvert consensus, but I would be fascinated to find out! The point of the RfC is to come to some kind of a conclusion about the best way to move forward with the infobox. If you would like nothing to change, please vote Option 3. Smallangryplanet (talk) 22:25, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104222500","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":11,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104222500-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241104212300","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241104233700-Smallangryplanet-20241104222500","c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241105160200-Smallangryplanet-20241104222500"]}}-->

  It's not really about finding a different term, an ally is not a combatant, could be but it is two different things. I have no problem with describing the US as an Israeli ally any more than Iran as a Hamas ally. Selfstudier (talk) 23:37, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104233700","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":12,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241104233700-Smallangryplanet-20241104222500","replies":[]}}-->

  We do not have have consensus to use that term, these fibs need to stop... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241105160200","author":"Horse Eye's Back","type":"comment","level":12,"id":"c-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241105160200-Smallangryplanet-20241104222500","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241105170800-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241105160200"]}}-->

  I read this discussion as deciding that "combatants" is unacceptable to the consensus, but allies/allies in other theaters could be acceptable and therefore made this to discuss it. Hence, this RfC. Iran is not physically on the ground in Gaza or directly in-theater (unless you count the missile strikes, in which case the US/UK forces that responded to them are also in-theater) but listed as an ally. I think that we should therefore list at least the US if not also the UK as allies. Smallangryplanet (talk) 17:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241105170800","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":13,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241105170800-Horse_Eye's_Back-20241105160200","replies":[]}}-->

• @Selfstudier @Unbandito @NadVolum @Bitspectator @Genabab @Skitash @PhotogenicScientist @Gog the Mild sorry for the ping but as people who have selected options just wanted to let you know that I've updated the wording of the RFC to read "Should the US and UK be added as allies in other theaters to Israel in the infobox?", similar to what was discussed up-page. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:15, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241104191500","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241104191500-PhotogenicScientist-20241104171000","replies":["c-Unbandito-20241105010900-Smallangryplanet-20241104191500","c-Genabab-20241107123700-Smallangryplanet-20241104191500"]}}-->

  Ideally, I think they should simply be added as allies as they were previously. I suppose allies in other theaters is fine, though I find this somewhat misleading. The US and UK have taken the most clearly belligerent actions in other theaters, but they have acted as allies in a more comprehensive manner by assisting Israel with intelligence and reconnaissance and most importantly, projecting power through aircraft carrier and troop deployments. When the US deploys an aircraft carrier in the Mediterranean and threatens to strike back at any outside parties who involve themselves in the war in Gaza, I think that should be interpreted as a belligerent action even if the deterrence is successful and a shot is never fired. Unbandito (talk) 01:09, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241105010900","author":"Unbandito","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Unbandito-20241105010900-Smallangryplanet-20241104191500","replies":[]}}-->

  I agree mostly with what Unabndito says. Genabab (talk) 12:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107123700","author":"Genabab","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Genabab-20241107123700-Smallangryplanet-20241104191500","replies":[]}}-->

Okay, per conversation here I have gone ahead and removed all "allies" and "allies in other theaters" from the infobox. It is now strictly scoped to Israel and Hamas, and in-line with the infobox spec. (There may be other variances but I leave fixing those to the knowledgeable folks in this conversation.) I assume that will be okay with everyone in this thread. If it is, I think we can go ahead and close this RfC as complete. @Selfstudier @Unbandito @NadVolum @Bitspectator @Genabab @Skitash @PhotogenicScientist @Gog the Mild @Horse Eye's Back @M.Bitton Smallangryplanet (talk) 16:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107165900","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107165900-Discussion","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107170400-Smallangryplanet-20241107165900","c-Selfstudier-20241107171200-Smallangryplanet-20241107165900","c-Genabab-20241107180400-Smallangryplanet-20241107165900","c-Unbandito-20241107233800-Smallangryplanet-20241107165900","c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108014700-Smallangryplanet-20241107165900"]}}-->

Don't agree. At least "Palestinian allies" should be there, if they are directly involved in fighting in Gaza, which I think they are. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107170400","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107170400-Smallangryplanet-20241107165900","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241107170600-Bitspectator-20241107170400","c-M.Bitton-20241107171000-Bitspectator-20241107170400"]}}-->

I've been told extensively that there is no space for "allies" in the infobox spec and so they should not be included. Do we have RS that these groups are combatants, or just defending areas of the Gaza Strip at the same time as the Israel-Hamas conflict? Smallangryplanet (talk) 17:06, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107170600","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107170600-Bitspectator-20241107170400","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107172400-Smallangryplanet-20241107170600"]}}-->

For some, yes. Look at the ToI link that was the ref for PIJ. There's no question that they are combatants in the current war in Gaza. Look at the first footnote in Israel-Hamas war. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107172400","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107172400-Smallangryplanet-20241107170600","replies":[]}}-->

You can't have it both ways: either we list all the allies (with no cherry picking) or we list none. M.Bitton (talk) 17:10, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107171000","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241107171000-Bitspectator-20241107170400","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107172000-M.Bitton-20241107171000"]}}-->

When did I say to have it both ways? I want any group directly involved in the Israel-Hamas war to be in the infobox. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107172000","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107172000-M.Bitton-20241107171000","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241107172600-Bitspectator-20241107172000","c-Selfstudier-20241107172900-Bitspectator-20241107172000"]}}-->

When you suggested that [at] least "Palestinian allies" should be there. M.Bitton (talk) 17:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107172600","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241107172600-Bitspectator-20241107172000","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107172900-M.Bitton-20241107172600"]}}-->

Because no "Israeli allies" were removed by Smallangryplanet's edit. Did you want me in my response to Smallangryplanet to advocate for the retention of content they didn't remove? Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107172900","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107172900-M.Bitton-20241107172600","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241107173400-Bitspectator-20241107172900"]}}-->

So what is it exactly that you don't agree with? M.Bitton (talk) 17:34, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107173400","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241107173400-Bitspectator-20241107172900","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107173600-M.Bitton-20241107173400"]}}-->

I want any group directly involved in the Israel-Hamas war to be in the infobox.

Smallangryplanet removed groups directly involved in the Israel-Hamas war from the infobox. I disagree with that. These groups should be in the infobox. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107173600","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107173600-M.Bitton-20241107173400","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241107173900-Bitspectator-20241107173600"]}}-->

In other words, you want to see the US and the UK added to the infobox. Is that correct? M.Bitton (talk) 17:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107173900","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241107173900-Bitspectator-20241107173600","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107174400-M.Bitton-20241107173900"]}}-->

I disagree with with the consensus that allies should not be in the infobox. So I would support that, which is why I said as much on November 4th.

But since I acknowledge the consensus against listing allies, I want at least groups directly involved in the Israel-Hamas war to be in the infobox. I don't think that's the case for the US or UK, but if you find RS saying that they are, sure. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107174400","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107174400-M.Bitton-20241107173900","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241107174800-Bitspectator-20241107174400"]}}-->

I don't think that's the case for the US or UK therein lies the issue that is has been discussed and is now the subject of a RfC. M.Bitton (talk) 17:48, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107174800","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":11,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241107174800-Bitspectator-20241107174400","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107175400-M.Bitton-20241107174800"]}}-->

Yeah the issue emerges if you ask me about the US and UK, obviously. Until you asked me about that I was talking about groups the Israel-Hamas war article itself describes in the first sentence as being involved in the war. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107175400","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":12,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107175400-M.Bitton-20241107174800","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241107182000-Bitspectator-20241107175400"]}}-->

That article does not refer to them as combatants, unlike this infobox. It also does not cite the information in the first sentence. So I think you could probably remove it, if you'd like. Smallangryplanet (talk) 18:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107182000","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":13,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107182000-Bitspectator-20241107175400","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107183700-Smallangryplanet-20241107182000"]}}-->

Overnight, Israel's Security Cabinet voted to act to bring about the "destruction of the military and governmental capabilities of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad".

Within a few days Ayser Mohammad Al-Amer, a senior commander of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad was killed during a clash with IDF in the Jenin refugee camp.

What are you talking about? Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107183700","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":14,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107183700-Smallangryplanet-20241107182000","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241107184200-Bitspectator-20241107183700"]}}-->

Please read the RfC and the discussion prior to the RfC. Israel describing them that way and someone having been killed in a separate incident does not qualify them as co-combatants, apparently. Smallangryplanet (talk) 18:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107184200","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":15,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107184200-Bitspectator-20241107183700","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107185400-Smallangryplanet-20241107184200"]}}-->

Could you link to what part says that? Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107185400","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":16,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107185400-Smallangryplanet-20241107184200","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241107185900-Bitspectator-20241107185400"]}}-->

Amongst other places, here and here and even here. Smallangryplanet (talk) 18:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107185900","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":17,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107185900-Bitspectator-20241107185400","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107190300-Smallangryplanet-20241107185900"]}}-->

Second comment:

To attribute Jordan or Iraq as Hamas allies on an inference from two episodes where people from Iraq and Jordan attacked Israel is ridiculous

Do you sincerely believe that reasoning applies to PIJ? Bitspectator ⛩️ 19:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107190300","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":18,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107190300-Smallangryplanet-20241107185900","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241107191100-Bitspectator-20241107190300"]}}-->

What I sincerely believe is immaterial (WP:TALKPOV). I am trying to close this RfC lest it go on forever, and it seemed as though we had agreed that the narrowest possible scoping of 'combatant' was the way to go. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:11, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107191100","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":19,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107191100-Bitspectator-20241107190300","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107191200-Smallangryplanet-20241107191100","c-Selfstudier-20241107192000-Smallangryplanet-20241107191100"]}}-->

Do you think that reasoning applies to PIJ? Bitspectator ⛩️ 19:12, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107191200","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":20,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107191200-Smallangryplanet-20241107191100","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241107191800-Bitspectator-20241107191200"]}}-->

Do we have evidence that the PIJ is fighting literally alongside Hamas, rather than fighting at the same time and in the same region and against the same enemy? Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107191800","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":21,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107191800-Bitspectator-20241107191200","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107192000-Smallangryplanet-20241107191800"]}}-->

First, please give an answer to my question. Do you think that reasoning applies to PIJ? Bitspectator ⛩️ 19:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107192000","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":22,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107192000-Smallangryplanet-20241107191800","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241107192200-Bitspectator-20241107192000","c-Smallangryplanet-20241107192200-Bitspectator-20241107192000","c-Selfstudier-20241107192200-Bitspectator-20241107192000"]}}-->

It applies to everyone who isn't the main belligerent (Israel or Hamas). As for the above question: we have evidence that the US is fighting alongside Israel. M.Bitton (talk) 19:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107192200","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":23,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241107192200-Bitspectator-20241107192000","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107193200-M.Bitton-20241107192200"]}}-->

Original comment:

To attribute Jordan or Iraq as Hamas allies on an inference from two episodes where people from Iraq and Jordan attacked Israel is ridiculous

The reasoning is that a single individual who happens to be from Jordan performing an attack doesn't mean that Jordan is a Hamas ally. In what way does that apply to PIJ? Bitspectator ⛩️ 19:32, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107193200","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":24,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107193200-M.Bitton-20241107192200","replies":[]}}-->

Of course, it applies to all of the groups involved. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107192200","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":23,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107192200-Bitspectator-20241107192000","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107192700-Smallangryplanet-20241107192200"]}}-->

No, sorry. Original comment:

To attribute Jordan or Iraq as Hamas allies on an inference from two episodes where people from Iraq and Jordan attacked Israel is ridiculous

The reasoning that a single individual who happens to be from Jordan performing an attack doesn't mean that Jordan is a Hamas ally... "applies to all of the groups involved"?

Please explain how this applies to PIJ. Bitspectator ⛩️ 19:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107192700","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":24,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107192700-Smallangryplanet-20241107192200","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241107193100-Bitspectator-20241107192700"]}}-->

Please explain what this has to do with this RFC? Selfstudier (talk) 19:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107193100","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":25,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241107193100-Bitspectator-20241107192700","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107193500-Selfstudier-20241107193100"]}}-->

I assume that will be okay with everyone in this thread. If it is, I think we can go ahead and close this RfC as complete.

It's not. So I'm saying as much. Bitspectator ⛩️ 19:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107193500","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":26,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107193500-Selfstudier-20241107193100","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241107193600-Bitspectator-20241107193500"]}}-->

OK, so the RFC can continue, I'm fine with that as well, arguments about reverts can take place in a separate section. Selfstudier (talk) 19:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107193600","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":27,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241107193600-Bitspectator-20241107193500","replies":[]}}-->

They did answer, it seemed as though we had agreed that the narrowest possible scoping of 'combatant' was the way to go.

Not sure we have agreed that, tho. Selfstudier (talk) 19:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107192200","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":23,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241107192200-Bitspectator-20241107192000","replies":[]}}-->

The RFC can go on for quite a while yet if desired, it is not possible to close it unless the participants that already !voted are in agreement. It is possible to open a different RFC if it can be separated entirely from this one (meaning that there cannot be contradictory results). Selfstudier (talk) 19:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107192000","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":20,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241107192000-Smallangryplanet-20241107191100","replies":[]}}-->

That's the problem essentially, an ally and a belligerent are not the same thing. Selfstudier (talk) 17:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107172900","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241107172900-Bitspectator-20241107172000","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107173100-Selfstudier-20241107172900"]}}-->

Yep. If we have consensus against listing allies, fine. We should put all belligerent Palestinian groups in the infobox with no tab. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107173100","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107173100-Selfstudier-20241107172900","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241107174100-Bitspectator-20241107173100"]}}-->

Define "belligerent Palestinian group" by some method. Selfstudier (talk) 17:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107174100","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241107174100-Bitspectator-20241107173100","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107174700-Selfstudier-20241107174100"]}}-->

I'm not inventing some new criteria. Groups fighting in the current war in Gaza. Like any other Wikipedia infobox about a war with more than one faction on one side. Like the first footnote of the Israel-Hamas war article. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107174700","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107174700-Selfstudier-20241107174100","replies":["c-Selfstudier-20241107175000-Bitspectator-20241107174700","c-Smallangryplanet-20241107181400-Bitspectator-20241107174700"]}}-->

There are three groups mentioned there (unsourced), is it in the article body somewhere? Selfstudier (talk) 17:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107175000","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241107175000-Bitspectator-20241107174700","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107183400-Selfstudier-20241107175000"]}}-->

PIJ is, multiple times. Other two, no. But they are in the body of 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel, which is part of the Israel-Hamas war. Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:34, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107183400","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107183400-Selfstudier-20241107175000","replies":[]}}-->

The conversation up thread in the RfC shows that we are abiding by a higher standard of proof for a particular group being a combatant vs simply using weapons in the same geographical region and calling themselves "allies" etc. The infobox only has sections for combatants, so we need RS that shows fighters from these groups fighting side by side with Hamas' military wing, and it can't be defensive. (Which IMO by the standard we've decided here precludes any group from being listed as a co-combatant, since they are fighting defensively against an invading force.) Smallangryplanet (talk) 18:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107181400","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107181400-Bitspectator-20241107174700","replies":[]}}-->

Yep, that's another way of dealing with the issue. Selfstudier (talk) 17:12, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107171200","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241107171200-Smallangryplanet-20241107165900","replies":[]}}-->

Talk about overcorrecting. At the very least keep all the Palestinian allies.

And yes there are sources that confirm they are in combat. Institute for the study of war in all their Iran statements have mentioned attacks by PIJ, PFLP, DFLP, PRC and others Genabab (talk) 18:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107180400","author":"Genabab","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Genabab-20241107180400-Smallangryplanet-20241107165900","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241107180900-Genabab-20241107180400","c-M.Bitton-20241107181000-Genabab-20241107180400"]}}-->

Then you (or whoever) can add them as combatants and justify it with RS. But there seems to be consensus that being an "ally" or fighting in the same geographical region is not enough for inclusion in this infobox, so just because these groups are launching attacks is not enough to list as combatants. Smallangryplanet (talk) 18:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107180900","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107180900-Genabab-20241107180400","replies":["c-Genabab-20241107182100-Smallangryplanet-20241107180900"]}}-->

@SmallangryplanetI have done as you suggested and added the Palestinian Joint operations room into the page Genabab (talk) 18:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107182100","author":"Genabab","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Genabab-20241107182100-Smallangryplanet-20241107180900","replies":["c-Genabab-20241107182200-Genabab-20241107182100"]}}-->

Palestinian Joint Operations Room* Genabab (talk) 18:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107182200","author":"Genabab","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Genabab-20241107182200-Genabab-20241107182100","replies":["c-Genabab-20241107182700-Genabab-20241107182200"]}}-->

@M.Bitton This is getting frustrating. How is there no consensus for including the Joint Operations Room? Genabab (talk) 18:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107182700","author":"Genabab","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Genabab-20241107182700-Genabab-20241107182200","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241107182700-Genabab-20241107182700"]}}-->

It's not a question of finding sources: there are plenty that support the addition of the US and the UK (none of which has been added without consensus). M.Bitton (talk) 18:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107182700","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241107182700-Genabab-20241107182700","replies":["c-Genabab-20241107183200-M.Bitton-20241107182700","c-Bitspectator-20241107185900-M.Bitton-20241107182700"]}}-->

OK, but that doesn't answer the question.

This is about the Palestinian Joint Operations Room!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You know, people on the ground fighting with Hamas and who fought in October 7 as well too boot!! There is 100000% consensus for the addition of the Joint Operations Room? Can you really not see what an overcorrection this is?? Genabab (talk) 18:32, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107183200","author":"Genabab","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Genabab-20241107183200-M.Bitton-20241107182700","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241107183600-Genabab-20241107183200","c-Smallangryplanet-20241107183900-Genabab-20241107183200"]}}-->

As opposed to the ones who are fighting with missiles? I don't see the difference. M.Bitton (talk) 18:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107183600","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241107183600-Genabab-20241107183200","replies":[]}}-->

We have consensus on this infobox for the inclusion of combatants only. Being an ally and fighting in the same geographic region has been ruled out. If we add the JOR, we should add the US and UK on the opposite side. I think we should do that! But I am adhering to the RfC process and the consensus we've developed, no matter how I personally feel. If you have RS that suggest those groups are fighting side by side with Hamas, on the ground, then by all means add them to the infobox as combatants per the spec. Smallangryplanet (talk) 18:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107183900","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107183900-Genabab-20241107183200","replies":[]}}-->

Could you share the sources you think best make this claim? Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107185900","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107185900-M.Bitton-20241107182700","replies":[]}}-->

there are sources that confirm they are in combat there are sources that confirm that the US and the UK were involved in combat. M.Bitton (talk) 18:10, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107181000","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241107181000-Genabab-20241107180400","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107182000-M.Bitton-20241107181000"]}}-->

They said "are in combat", you are saying "involved in combat". Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107182000","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107182000-M.Bitton-20241107181000","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241107182000-Bitspectator-20241107182000"]}}-->

With all due respect: what Smallangryplanet (talk) 18:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107182000","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107182000-Bitspectator-20241107182000","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107183100-Smallangryplanet-20241107182000"]}}-->

One shouldn't have to change the wording if the point is true. If that nuance is insignificant to you, then you don't have to be a part of this conversation. If you think the US and UK "are in combat", like PIJ, then just say that. Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107183100","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107183100-Smallangryplanet-20241107182000","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241107183500-Bitspectator-20241107183100"]}}-->

I have been fairly extensively, all up and down the talk page, but I will respect the consensus. We can argue about terms (in combat vs involved in combat) forever or we can respect the consensus and move forward. Smallangryplanet (talk) 18:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107183500","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107183500-Bitspectator-20241107183100","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107183800-Smallangryplanet-20241107183500"]}}-->

Consensus for what? Removal of allies? I'm saying PIJ is a belligerent. Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107183800","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107183800-Smallangryplanet-20241107183500","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241107184000-Bitspectator-20241107183800","c-M.Bitton-20241107184400-Bitspectator-20241107183800"]}}-->

Okay, then add them as a combatant per the infobox spec presuming you have RS that show they're fighting directly alongside Hamas. Otherwise they are "allies" and must not be included. Smallangryplanet (talk) 18:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107184000","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107184000-Bitspectator-20241107183800","replies":[]}}-->

I'm saying PIJ is a belligerent. I'm saying that the US is a belligerent. M.Bitton (talk) 18:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107184400","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241107184400-Bitspectator-20241107183800","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107184500-M.Bitton-20241107184400"]}}-->

Then add it. I already said I would be okay with that. Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:45, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107184500","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107184500-M.Bitton-20241107184400","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241107184800-Bitspectator-20241107184500"]}}-->

Not in the middle of a RfC that is supposed to sort out the issue of who is and who isn't a belligerent, ally or whatever else editors want to call them. M.Bitton (talk) 18:48, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107184800","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":11,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241107184800-Bitspectator-20241107184500","replies":["c-Bitspectator-20241107185700-M.Bitton-20241107184800"]}}-->

Okay, then maybe the removal shouldn't have happened either. Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:57, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107185700","author":"Bitspectator","type":"comment","level":12,"id":"c-Bitspectator-20241107185700-M.Bitton-20241107184800","replies":["c-Smallangryplanet-20241107190100-Bitspectator-20241107185700","c-Selfstudier-20241107190300-Bitspectator-20241107185700"]}}-->

I was - possibly foolishly - attempting to close the RfC as it seemed that we had a consensus that the definition of 'combatant' had to be as narrowly scoped as possible, thereby sorting out who is and who isn't a belligerent, ally or whatever else editors want to call them. Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107190100","author":"Smallangryplanet","type":"comment","level":13,"id":"c-Smallangryplanet-20241107190100-Bitspectator-20241107185700","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241107190600-Smallangryplanet-20241107190100"]}}-->

It wasn't foolish at all. Removing all those that fall into the grey area (with no cherry picking) and leaving the "main belligerents" is one way to sort out the issue. M.Bitton (talk) 19:06, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107190600","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":14,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241107190600-Smallangryplanet-20241107190100","replies":[]}}-->

Just to be clear, the removal was accompanied with a suggestion to close the RFC. Selfstudier (talk) 19:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107190300","author":"Selfstudier","type":"comment","level":13,"id":"c-Selfstudier-20241107190300-Bitspectator-20241107185700","replies":[]}}-->

Not what I had in mind. The US and UK fit as either belligerents or allies. They are both. I vote that we add them in and add the Palestinian allies back. Unbandito (talk) 23:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241107233800","author":"Unbandito","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Unbandito-20241107233800-Smallangryplanet-20241107165900","replies":[]}}-->

At the least, the groups fighting alongside Hamas in Gaza deserve to be listed in the infobox. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 01:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108014700","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108014700-Smallangryplanet-20241107165900","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241108020600-PhotogenicScientist-20241108014700"]}}-->

Do you support the addition of the countries fighting alongside Israel? If not, why? M.Bitton (talk) 02:06, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108020600","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241108020600-PhotogenicScientist-20241108014700","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108021600-M.Bitton-20241108020600"]}}-->

You've already WP:BADGERED me enough about this exact point in the survey section above. You should know exactly my answer by now. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 02:16, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108021600","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108021600-M.Bitton-20241108020600","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241108022000-PhotogenicScientist-20241108021600"]}}-->

The only consistent point that you have is your inconsistent approach to the subject (cherry picking which side belongs in the infobox based on some random criteria, that moves with the wind). M.Bitton (talk) 02:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108022000","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241108022000-PhotogenicScientist-20241108021600","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108023200-M.Bitton-20241108022000"]}}-->

Sigh... if I must respond to the personal attack: Belligerents are groups who go around attacking people in the theater. Not exactly inconsistent with everything I've said above. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 02:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108023200","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":6,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108023200-M.Bitton-20241108022000","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241108023700-PhotogenicScientist-20241108023200"]}}-->

Casting aspersions doesn't add any weight to your comments (just so you know). The rest of your comments cements what I said about the cherry picking (as if we don't have access to dictionaries). M.Bitton (talk) 02:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108023700","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":7,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241108023700-PhotogenicScientist-20241108023200","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108024800-M.Bitton-20241108023700"]}}-->

Unless you can find an example of such "cherry picking" in my statements above, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, rack up another aspersion. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 02:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108024800","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":8,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108024800-M.Bitton-20241108023700","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241108025000-PhotogenicScientist-20241108024800"]}}-->

Using some random websites to "create" a definition of a common word that is found in all dictionaries is not just plain cherry picking, it's a special kind of cherry picking that I haven't seen before. M.Bitton (talk) 02:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108025000","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":9,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241108025000-PhotogenicScientist-20241108024800","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108030400-M.Bitton-20241108025000"]}}-->

What common word would that be? "Belligerent?" The word that "no longer has a precise legal definition?" PhotogenicScientist (talk) 03:04, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108030400","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":10,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108030400-M.Bitton-20241108025000","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241108030500-PhotogenicScientist-20241108030400"]}}-->

I rest my case. M.Bitton (talk) 03:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108030500","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":11,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241108030500-PhotogenicScientist-20241108030400","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108030700-M.Bitton-20241108030500"]}}-->

Of course you do. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 03:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108030700","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":12,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108030700-M.Bitton-20241108030500","replies":[]}}-->

The real question is, when will the vote be counted? It appears the majority of people approve of Option 1 or Option 2. With only 2-3 people saying otherwise. I know wikipedia is not a vote-based website BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! since this is a RfC vote, that takes precedence.

This would all be over if we can just agree to add America to Israel's side, and add everyone else to Hamas' side, wouldn't it? Genabab (talk) 13:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108130900","author":"Genabab","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Genabab-20241108130900-Discussion","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108142100-Genabab-20241108130900"]}}-->

RFCs run for 30 days. So far, pretty much all we've seen is people who were already at this talk page restating their opinion. The longer duration allows for more outside input to come in. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 14:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108142100","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108142100-Genabab-20241108130900","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241108142400-PhotogenicScientist-20241108142100"]}}-->

We've also seen those who are eager to impose their POV through reverts (in the middle of a RfC and with complete disregard for the ONUS policy). M.Bitton (talk) 14:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108142400","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241108142400-PhotogenicScientist-20241108142100","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108143000-M.Bitton-20241108142400"]}}-->

Hey there, kettle. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 14:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108143000","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":4,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241108143000-M.Bitton-20241108142400","replies":["c-M.Bitton-20241108143100-PhotogenicScientist-20241108143000"]}}-->

Free courses in basic editing and reading comprehension are not difficult to find. M.Bitton (talk) 14:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241108143100","author":"M.Bitton","type":"comment","level":5,"id":"c-M.Bitton-20241108143100-PhotogenicScientist-20241108143000","replies":[]}}-->

 Comment: Gilbert Achcar, writing for Le Monde Diplomatique, names the United States as a "cobelligerent" of Israel in the Gaza War, and gives a detailed justification for this classification, explaining how US military actions impacted the outcome of the war in the Gaza theater and how US policy in this war differs from its stance toward all previous Israeli wars. Unless others can find one or more equally reliable sources that explicitly and meaningfully contest this classification, this should be more than enough to bypass this debate altogether and add the US directly under Israel as a belligerent. [7] Unbandito (talk) 12:43, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241127124300","author":"Unbandito","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Unbandito-20241127124300-Discussion","replies":[]}}-->

 Question: I am afraid I do not understand the conclusion of the above conversation, relating to the removal of Hamas allies in the infobox. Are we still discussing the infobox as it existed on or around Nov 4th, or are we discussing the infobox as it currently stands? I feel I would not be alone in saying that the current infobox and the infobox as it existed at the start of the RFC are substantially different enough as to change my (hypothetical) vote JustAnotherEditHere (talk) 03:33, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241123033300","author":"JustAnotherEditHere","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-JustAnotherEditHere-20241123033300-Discussion","replies":["c-PhotogenicScientist-20241126220400-JustAnotherEditHere-20241123033300"]}}-->

The presence (or absence) of other material in an article should have little impact on whether or not other material should be included. Assess the sources and our guidelines/documentation on their own merits, and decide if you think the US's and UK's participation rises to the level of "belligerent" status.

The only time we look at other content to determine if it's appropriate to include something is balancing NPOV aspects - however, "maintain NPOV" is a much weaker argument than justifying material's inclusion based on its own merits. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 22:04, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241126220400","author":"PhotogenicScientist","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-PhotogenicScientist-20241126220400-JustAnotherEditHere-20241123033300","replies":["c-JustAnotherEditHere-20241128053200-PhotogenicScientist-20241126220400"]}}-->

Thank you for your reply. I suppose my thought on that is that NPOV is the tipping point for my stance, but without that I will make a contribution on the RFC at hand. JustAnotherEditHere (talk) 05:32, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241128053200","author":"JustAnotherEditHere","type":"comment","level":3,"id":"c-JustAnotherEditHere-20241128053200-PhotogenicScientist-20241126220400","replies":[]}}-->

References

1. "US helped Israel shoot down Iran missiles - Pentagon". www.bbc.com. Retrieved 2024-11-04.
2. Lillis, Katie Bo; Bertrand, Natasha; Cohen, Zachary; Liebermann, Oren (2023-11-03). "US surveillance drones flying over Gaza to help with hostage search". CNN Politics. CNN. Retrieved 2024-11-04.
3. "How many US troops are in the Middle East?". AP News. 2024-09-19. Retrieved 2024-11-04.
4. KENNARD, MATT (2024-10-03). "Keir Starmer's 100 spy flights over Gaza in support of Israel". Declassified Media Ltd. Retrieved 2024-11-04.
5. "UK forces involved in response to Iran attacks on Israel". BBC News. 2024-10-01. Retrieved 2024-11-04.

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Lions Den should not be listed as a belligerent

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Lions' Den has received a good amount of media coverage regarding the group itself but actually considering it a major player in this war is an incredibly massive stretch. I could only find one documented Lions' Den attack in April 2024 (https://www.state.gov/sanctioning-violent-palestinian-group-in-the-west-bank/) and besides that the group has been described as currently largely dormant (https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-state-department-announces-sanctions-on-west-bank-terror-group-lions-den/).

In no way are they on the same level of notability as the other belligerents mentioned in the infobox. I propose their inclusion be replaced with "Smaller militant groups" which can include Lions' Den as well as groups like Jaysh al-Ummah and others. Evaporation123 (talk) 06:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241113063300","author":"Evaporation123","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Evaporation123-20241113063300-Lions_Den_should_not_be_listed_as_a_belligerent","replies":[]}}-->

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 November 2024

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Change 'Indirect deaths[k] likely to be multiple times higher' to "Indirect deaths[k] could possibly be multiple times higher."

The source that claims that indirect deaths are likely much higher is very controversial and didn't give a proper analysis. So it is more safe to say possibly than likely. Bonnom (talk) 00:59, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241122005900","author":"Bonnom","type":"comment","level":1,"id":"c-Bonnom-20241122005900-Extended-confirmed-protected_edit_request_on_22_November_2024","replies":["c-Isochrone-20241223210200-Bonnom-20241122005900"]}}-->

@Bonnom controversial in what way? Please provide evidence of the scientific study being disputed. – Isochrone (talk) 21:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]__DTELLIPSISBUTTON__{"threadItem":{"timestamp":"20241223210200","author":"Isochrone","type":"comment","level":2,"id":"c-Isochrone-20241223210200-Bonnom-20241122005900","replies":[]}}-->